Tuesday, October 02, 2007

Tuesday 10/02 A.M. Quickie:
Rockies, MLB Playoffs, Pats Rule, Isiah, More!

Today's Names to Know: Matt Holliday, Trevor Hoffman, Scott Schoenweis, Sammy Morris, Reggie Nelson, Ricky Williams, Brian Griese, Isiah Thomas, Kobe, Oregon, More.

MLB Playoffs: Rockies Win the Wild Card! Wow: You can not care about either the Rockies or the Padres or the NL and appreciate what a wild, satisfying (if late-running) game that was to decide the NL Wild Card.

Let's start with the controversial ending: Would-be-MVP Matt Holliday did NOT seem to touch home plate for the winning run (and I say that as a Rockies sympathizer), although that's how the ump ruled.

Yet another classic example: Baseball needs instant replay. Period.

Really, for two simple, fairly clear-cut purposes: (1) Checking home runs (which they could have used earlier in the game; this game might not have even gone to extra innings if that Atkins double had been correctly ruled a HR), and (2) plays at home plate. Let me emphasize: PLAYS AT HOME PLATE.

Anyway, you've got to give the Rockies credit for scoring 3 runs after going down 2 in the 13th. They could have folded (particularly against baseball's all-time saves leader, despite Hoffman's recent struggles), but they found yet another way to win, as they have the entire last month of the season.

In a surge rarely seen in baseball, Colorado truly earned this playoff spot. (Having spent a lot of time in Denver this summer and having attended a bunch of Rockies games -- no, I'm not declaring them as my new favorite team, thank you very much -- their fans deserve it. It's been a long time since this team has given them something to cheer about.)

If you have no natural rooting interest in the playoffs, these Rockies are really easy to root for (although they'll be hard-pressed to siphon national sympathy from the Cubs, or even the Phillies... and that's just in the NL.)

Up next: Enjoying the moment for the next 24 hours, then traveling to Philadelphia to take on a Phillies team with just as much mojo -- as much belief in themselves -- as the Rockies have.

MLB Playoff Preview coming later this morning, in its own post. (Update: Changed my mind. It'll be the lead of tomorrow's usual a.m. post. Anyone who says they know what's going to happen -- from the LDS to the LCS to picking a WS champ -- is pulling one over on you. Can't remember a more wide-open MLB playoff, especially coming off last year, when 99 percent of "experts" and fans got most of the predictions flat wrong.)

MLB PED Watch: Who had "Scott Schoenweis" among the MLB players who would have used PEDs?

(I could make the easy self-hating joke about how, as the rare Jewish baseball player, it's understandable he might need that extra edge to nudge his athleticism to the MLB level, but really, it's just as much of an embarrassment for Jewish fans as it is for any fans who find out one of their team's player is cheating. Schoenweis reportedly acquired PEDs in 2003 and 2004, but -- then again -- during '03 and '04 who DIDN'T?)

NFL MNF: Pats stifle Bengals, 34-13, affirm their place as the NFL's preeminent team this year. Given that the rest of the league is such a mish-mash of unevenness, I don't think I can remember when one team seemed so much better than the rest than this year with the Pats.

(Yes, I know the Colts are 4-0, but with the injuries, I just don't see them anywhere near the Pats' level. And, as longtime readers know, I'm no fan of the Pats, yet I still am fully a believer in the 19-0 potential. The Pats have the best offense AND the best defense. Yikes.)

Here's the stat of the season so far: The Pats are the first team in nearly 90 years to have a 20-plus-point victory margin in all of their first 4 games. (h/t: Fanhouse)

The Pats D flummoxed Carson Palmer into 21/35 passing and 2 INTs, with only 1 TD. And Chad Johnson was held to 3 catches. Meanwhile, the Pats offense put the ball in 7 receivers hands, including Mike Vrabel for a TD (and Randy Moss for 2).

Moss as NFL MVP? Let me be the first to say it: I know Brett Favre is the sentimental favorite as the 1/4-Season NFL MVP, but you could make a great case for Randy Moss. That's who I would pick as my MVP through 4 games: 31 receptions, 500-plus yards, 7 TDs. Moss is the special sauce that has transformed the Pats offense into an unstoppable juggernaut.

Fantasy Break-Out: Sammy Morris. Don't bother checking your league's free-agent list; undoubtedly, Morris is already gone. But last night he proved his value, rushing for 117 yards (including a 49-yard run) and a TD. He's going to be a classic fantasy points-robber from Maroney.

Scandal Watch: Was Reggie Nelson (and three other as-yet-unnamed Florida players) involved in a shooting at a Gainesville on Saturday night.

This ain't good for Nelson, and this sure as hell ain't good for the Gators involved, not to mention a program already reeling enough from on-field problems -- the last thing they need is off-field ones.

(Nelson's lawyer says he wasn't there at the time of the shooting. Waiting on the involvement of the Florida players. Hopefully, witnesses just named them because they knew who they were, not because of involvement.)

Brian Griese still the Bears QB: I'm sure fans are thrilled. Thanks to the Chicago Trib's excellent daily blog for pointing out my observation yesterday that, at this rate, the team will have a great shot at one of the top QBs of the 2008 NFL Draft. (Andre Woodson would look nice in a Bears uniform, wouldn't he?)

DeAngelo Hall wants out of Atlanta: Wouldn't you? (Oh, wait: I'm talking about the Falcons sucking. He's probably talking about the Falcons presenting a wee bit of a hostile environment toward him.)

NFL Injury Watch: Alex Smith won't need surgery on his separated shoulder. But what about his separated psyche?

Ricky Williams wants back in: If he can get himself into anything resembling game shape, I can't believe he can't play again.

Cadillac Williams done for the season: Hey, maybe the Bucs want to sign Ricky Williams...

Isiah Thomas on Trial: Looks like the jury is going to convict him. The only question now seems to be this: How much will he have to pay in punitive damages?

CFB: Here's the latest Deadspin column, if you missed it yesterday.

This week's BlogPoll: A reader has convinced me to change my mind! Here's from Dan Womack:

"You seriously dropped Oregon 9 spots for losing to an undefeated Cal team with a fluky fumble out of the endzone finish? They dropped 3 in the AP. Meanwhile, you dropped Florida 7 spots for losing to a 2 loss Auburn team in an awful looking game."

Good point, Dan! I have moved Oregon up to No. 15. Probably not as high as you'd like, but it's a start. And if they beat USC, hell, I'll likely be so giddy that I will vault them back into the Top 10.

NBA: Kobe (finally) arrives at Lakers training camp. I wouldn't read as much into that as others (for once), but there's no question Kobe can't be happy about the state of the team. They didn't get much better in the offseason, and the rest of the West is still either better or made moves to GET better.

More: Mutombo signs with the Rockets for one more year. He's the NBA's Methuselah, not to mention author of the greatest NBA quote of all time: "Who wants to sex Mutombo?"

Condolences to family, friends and fans of Memphis football player Taylor Bradford, shot and killed on Sunday.

Readers in NYC: Tomorrow night is Varsity Letters! Great writers, tasty booze and good people. 8 p.m. at Happy Ending (302 Broome St). And it's F-R-E-E. Here's the link.

-- D.S.


Unknown said...

Andre Woodson would not look nice in a Bears' uniform. It would be covered in dirt and grass thanks to the O-Line that all got old at once.

Unknown said...

Im not a huge baseball fan, but if he didnt touch homeplate the ball was still dropped, the catcher acted as if it was over. Couldnt he have just went back and touched the plate?

is this really a big deal?

Kurt said...

hardell, the catcher picked up the ball and tagged the runner afterwards, but the ruling was safe.

Natsfan74 said...

Biggest question from the baseball game last night -- why did Holliday slide head first? Everyone knows you go feet first into a catcher who is blocking the plate. If he goes feet first, he definitely touches the plate, and he avoids the head digger that cost him the chance to celebrate, and maybe more?

Second question -- Given the Patriots remaining schedule, 19-0 does look possible. But, can anyone in the AFC give them the incentive to need wins in the final weeks? A few years ago, when the Steelers, Colts, and Patriots were all having great seasons, it took 16-0 to win HFA throughout. But, as other Colts teams have shown, 14-0 then playoff rest is better than 16-0 and not being ready (healthy) for the playoffs. Will the Patriots need 14+ wins to get HFA? Otherwise, I don't think the Pats try. I see Brady sitting a few games at the end if they have HFA locked up early!

David Kippe said...

i am not usually one to concede, but um, the Pats are not gonna lose, they did not play well last night and still killed Cincy on the road. Just give them the Lombardi Trophy already, wow.

Unknown said...

While Holliday is a great player, and possibly the NL MVP, I do have to question his ability to rise to the big challenge. That fielding error was really bad, and then what the hell was up with that slide? He should have bowled over Barrett, and the play would not have been close. I do not believe he touched the plate, looked like a great blocking job by Barrett, but the umpire was not sure, so better to be safe than sorry I guess.

Steve said...

Natsfan, I would say locking up home field advantage and then resting the starters the last 2 weeks cost the colts a Super Bowl not helped them. They came out rusty against Pittsburgh in the 1st half and built too big of a deficit. Had they come out sharp they probably win that game and the Super Bowl. The whole idea of resting your starters before the playoffs is utter garbage.

As far as the Patriots going 19-0 I am LOVING this talk. They have beaten 4 1-3 teams, not exactly the cream of the crop, more like the cream of the crap. NFL history is littered with teams who had impressive Septembers who didn't do so well in January.

CMFost said...

Dan the Bucs could not sign Ricky Williams he is still under contract to the Miami Dolphins.

CMFost said...

being I patriots fan I hate people talking about 16-0 this early. There are so many things that can happen in an NFL season that it virtually impossible to go undefeated. Also if you look at the Pats schedule The patriots have what you would consider 4 tough games left on there schedule and 3 of them are on the road.

The Pats may go undefeated but as a fan of the team I am looking to next week and getting to 5-0 before I think about 16-0.

CMFost said...

The Holliday play was some sort of Karmic payback for the umps blowing Atkins HR. If the umps got that call right there probably would not have been extra innings

Unknown said...

Is there really any question as to if Dan actually stayed up to watch this game?

I say: no.

Unknown said...

To be fair to Cincy, their defense is pulling guys out of the stands to cover their injuries.

Plus no starting RB.

just sayin

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Don't forget that even if they did have instant replay there is no way that you could find "indisputable evidence" that Holliday didn't touchthe plate.

We know his hand got under Barrett's foot but you can't tell if his fingers got the plate.

CMFost said...

Here is somethings that should scare people about the Pats, last night they played without:

There Starting RB, RG, DE and SS

Brian in Oxford said...

He definitely didn't touch the plate. I thought replays were conclusive, but you have to interpolate it from the view down the line, with the view from behind home plate -- to match up exactly where Holliday's hand hits the foot.

I don't think Barrett actually did tag him after, he was on his way to, when McClelland "finally" gave the safe sign. Oh well, he DID get the pine tar call right!

Someone online last week was suggesting the Colts could go 16-0, rather than the Patriots. Tirico made the definitive point last night, if you wanna go 16-0, you have to start 4-0.

Darklawdog said...

No mention of the Benglas having to pay homeless bums from the street to play linebacker for them.

nsrrder said...

we all know the pats will lose to someone they shey should kill. I see the Ravens/Steelers back to back in December as the likely "stub your toe" moment.

David Kippe said...

ok, now that we have got MNF and the Rockies win out of our systems, on to more important things...GO YANKS! THE TRIBE SUCKS! JOBA RULES!

pv845 said...

I think the missed of touching the plate and the subsequent safe call is like a down by contact whistle. I mean once the ref calls him safe it is over.

Darklawdog said...

Speaking of the injuries, I should go try out for linebacker for the Bengals. Afterall, I am healthy.

The heroin sheik said...

If the bucs could get ricky williams I would personally drive down to the one buc place and give him a pound of the best pot I can find and give him every weed dealers number I have.

I have a sinking suspicion that this season might get a hell of a lot worse for UF before it gets better. I don't know whats goin on down there but I almost think I don't want to know. It is weird how after every big game we seem to have down there someone gets killed. I remember when i was in college someone from UT got killed at a keg party because I think they were thrown down a flight of stairs, which begs the question what was some dumb UT fan doing at a party in gville after they got their ass kicked. I know when I go to an away game I try to get the hell out of town asap.

chitown italian said...



Trey (formerly TF) said...


That Tennessee kid was a friend of a Florida student. He made a mistake of mouthing off and got pushed, however, there was nothing to stop him but a flight of stairs.

Sadly, it was just a stupid argument that got out of control.

As far as the current three.

One was Aaron Hernandez, who was out with his mom and 2 high school teammates a the time of the shooting.

It will all go the wayside.

However, I was told there is a Gator Defensive Starter who will miss the LSU game for a suspension unrelated. I don't know who, my workmate wasn't sure.

Trey (formerly TF) said...


I got the game in FL. Beat the hell out of MNF.

David Kippe said...

got the game here in Jersey

Unknown said...


The only way that you didn't have the game was if you don't have basic cable. TBS is a channel that comes with every cable package.

And if you were pissed about not having it because it was a playoff game (which it technically wasn't) you are going to be really pissed because every playoff game is on TBS this year except one game on TNT (which if you don't have TBS you probably don't have either) and the ALCS and WS which are on Fox.

So if you don't have TBS I hope you aren't a fan of the first round or of the NL.

Trey (formerly TF) said...

Tony Joiner...stupid...

Ken Dynamo said...

dan - why is it an embarassment for jewish fans if a jewish athlete uses PEDs? i am a jewish met fan and all i can think of is how great it would be to void that jerk's stupid piece of shit contract that omar stupidly signed after we lost bradford to the O's.

Dan Shanoff said...

What I'm hearing most from friends and others via email, echoing a few comments here: What was up with Holliday's slide? He couldn't have done that more wrongly.-- D.S.

Unknown said...

Game was on Cablevision on TBS. At first It thought it wasn't on because I looked at TNT (Turner's other station).

Game was great too. I was flipping between football and baseball for a while and then just watched the far more exciting baseball game. I dozed off for the 10th and 11th but then had to stay up and watch it. Glad I did.

I have mixed feelings about baseball replays. We probably would have had the same result in any event. I would be OK with replays for fair/foul calls and for HRs. I am still undecided about plays at the plate. What about plays at 2nd and 3rd? Part of the beauty of baseball is that it has pretty much remained unchanged in terms of rules for a long long time. There is no clock, no limit on the number of timeouts, etc. Maybe it could use some of those things but most baseball fans are purists and like me, opt to keep it the same.

chitown italian said...

I just heard from a friend that it was shown where he was on ABC family.

WTF??? Yeah, big fan of that channel.

I guess I'll be hitting the bars more than normal after work.

DanIEL HEYNEN said...

Wasn't "Who wants to sex Motumbo" an all time college quote, not NBA?

Unknown said...

Oh yeah, nearly forgot,


YES was replaying the final game of the 1977 WS yesterday when Reggie hit 3 HRs to beat the Dodgers. What a nostalgic flashback for me to my childhood. What a great game and time. Just wild seeing a young Pinella, Randolph, Reggie, Mick the Quick Rivers, Billy Martin and Munson. Steinbrenner was young and energetic saying he would keep the team the same.

Also interesting to see the old graphics. They just showed runs hits and errors each inning. Mike Torrez pitched a complete game and nobody mentioned or probably even knew his pitch count.

Unknown said...

One of the more interesting things was that this mourning on Mike and Mike, Timmy said that one of the reasons they may be holding off on instant replay is that managers would ask for instant replays of calls in order to get guys more time to warm up in the bullpen.

Think about this play. Let's say that Bud Black wants to pull Hoffman so even if he knows that Holliday is safe he still calls for the replay so that he can get a guy up in the pen.

They also had a problem with what the punishment would be if you got the call wrong.

Mike said...

"being I patriots fan I hate people talking about 16-0 this early. There are so many things that can happen in an NFL season that it virtually impossible to go undefeated"

Here goes CMFost again. Making Patriots 19-0 seem impossible so if/when it happens he can say OMG OMG OMG best team everrrrrr.

The Poobah said...

Last night's game illustrates something else too..

Trevor Hoffman is the anti-Rivera. He has NEVER closed out a big game. He puts up tons of saves numbers but he is the last person you want closing an important game. He hasn't had much opportunity I know, but All-Star games and playoffs he is awful. I saw somewhere that if last night's game could be considered a playoff game, his career postseason stats are 1-3 with a 5.27 ERA.

The heroin sheik said...

Tf even if that kid that got killed at that party in gville years ago was a friend of a gator it is still stupid. Sort of like when we lost in OT up in Knoxville like in 98 or so. I was up there with my roomie whose brother taught at UT. We thought we could get a drink at a bar before driving home. Next thing you know I have a broken hand and glass cuts from getting a bottle shattered on my head and having to fight my way out of a bar. My own dumb fault for sporting the orange and blue in hostile territory. Still this weekends incident doesn't appear to be anything like the others. I killed a bottle of 35 yr single malt after this last game. I might be needing a trip to the er for alcohol poisoning if we drop another deuce.

The heroin sheik said...

I just read what Tony Joiner did. I can't say I blame him as watson's towing are almost as evil as hitler.

CMFost said...

Chitown I could watch the game in Boston

Matt said...

Cant wait for the tribe/yanks series to start thursday.

the yankee lineup does worry me however i think their pitching will struggle and be the downfall against them.

oh and yankee fans dont bring up us being 0-6 this year. u didnt face CC fausto had you dominated only to have the game blown by borowski. and we have a much better and different lineup.

tribe in 4

CMFost said...

Mike 2 things:

1. I do not expect the Patriots or any team to ever go undefeated.

2. If any team did go 19-0 in this era they would be the greatest team ever.

I will be happy getting to 5-0 and after that we can talk about 6-0

David Kippe said...

0-6 does mean nothing, but JOBA RULES!

David Kippe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...


Ummmmm... that sounded a lot like Rivera doesn't blow big games. As I recall he blew a slighty bigger game (Game 7 of the World Series against the 'Backs). He also blew the save in the bottom 9 of game 4 and in the bottom 8 of game 5 in the 2004 ALCS against the Sox.

Granted Rivera is one of the most solid relievers of all time, but even the best blow saves.

Hoffman blows more clearly but no one is infallable.

David Kippe said...

cmfost, best season ever if they went 19-0, not sure about the best team ever tag. i think most people do not consider the 72 dolphins to be the best team ever. Most will say the 85 Bears were the best team ever, even though the 72 dolphins have the most wins ever w/o a loss.

chitown italian said...

@Guy - Technically it was a "playoff" game. Look at CNNSI.com's main page. It might be just one game but it was a playoff.

TBS is going to blow this year. It's all over the Tribune in Chicago about having to go to a bar. What if I have the dish? Crap, I never really watched TBS before. I guess I better figure it out tonight.

I mean, McCarver sucks but that's why you can watch the game with the sound off and WGN radio on. Even with the delay and Santo's best Red Foxx impersonation it is way better than Fox broadcasting with Buck and McCarver.

David Kippe said...

but Rivera has saved the big game, Hoffman hasn't, that is the HUGE difference that people are pointing out. Yes he has blown a couple, but he is the best closer ever, regular season and post season.

The Poobah said...


Rivera has blown a few absolutely. Big ones. Really big ones. But the guy has a career 0.80 ERA in the postseason, and that's a lot of 6 out saves as well. The ERA is a run and half better than his regular season ERA.

He obviously turns it on in the postseason. Hoffman obviously does not. That's my point.

David Kippe said...

@chitown, i believe the game is actually considered regular season, all stats are included in your regular season totals. thats why fantasy leagues were not over yet.

Unknown said...


In no way was it a playoff game. Both teams used 40 man rosters just like a September game. The stats count for regular season (such as Peavy going for 20 W's and Holliday for the batting title).

The only thing that was playoffy was the fact that they used 6 umps. The announcers said that even though it wasn't a playoff game the MLB said to use 6 because the extra 2 were "available". I say that makes no sense because if there are umps available in a city for a random regular season game you don't have them work.

Then again, the extra 2 still didn't help make the right call on the Atkins HR/2B so they might as well have not showed up.

David Kippe said...

yeah, cal was having flashbacks to jeffrey maier on that play

CMFost said...

Sparty to be factual the Dolphins only have the most wins without a lose in a single season. The Patriots hold the Record for most consecutive wins. The Pats won the final 12 games of 2003, then the 3 Playoffs games and then the first 6 games of 2004 to set the records of 18 straight regular season wins and 21 straight wins including playoffs

David Kippe said...

I was making the statement with the assumption that you understood that i meant one season with the Dolphins.

Brian in Oxford said...

also, Guy,

Rivera didn't LOSE the game 4 to the Sox, he did let it get tied up. And in game 5, he came in with 1st and 3rd, no outs, gave up only a sac fly, no more, over the 8th and 9th. Tom Gordon blew that game, really....Hoffman actually LOST the game for his team, not just failed to hold a lead.

although you're right on it being a regular-season game. They said if Holliday had gone 0 for 5, he'd have lost the batting crown. (I thought we ALL knew it was regular season, ahead of time...no?)

CMFost said...

personally I would consider the '72 Dolphins to be the best team ever since they have done something no other team ever did and that is go undefeated. Several teams have had 1 loss season but only one has had a undefeated and that should put them on the top of the heap.

Tortfeasor said...

"Conviction" intimates a criminal trial. "Found liable" is more appropriate for this civil trial. Just sayin', I am a torfteaser, after all.

Steve said...

The best NFL team ever is always the most current champion. The players are always bigger faster and stronger every year. The '72 Dolphins would get their asses handed to them by this year's Rams let alone this year's Super Bowl winner. If the 2006 Colts played the 72 Dolphins they would be able to name the score.

Beetle said...

Let's reign that Pats hype back in just a tad.
Now, I am a HUGE Pats fan, but so far the combined record of Patriots opponents this season is 4 - 12.
Sure, everyone thought the Jets, Chargers, and Bengals were supposed to be good this year, but it looks like that just isn't the case.
The Pats should topple a fairly game Browns squad next week and will face their first real test in Dallas in 2 weeks.
Let's see how they do in big D before we just hand them the Super Bowl trophy.

Travis said...

I dont have cable, but I watch baseball and football online for free... God bless sopcast.

This Patriots team certainly could be one of the best ever.

Jingoist said...

Here's something scary to think about... Being a life-long Pats fan and having watched every game in the past 25 years, I can rightfully say that they were not even that good last night. Honestly, they looked worse than they had in their 3 previous wins this season.

I am not saying they were not dominant, but they did look a little sloppy at times and things like the Brady interception were uncharacteristic of this year's juggernaut, as was the failure to score a TD on their opening drive into the red zone- some of the weakest play calling they have had was that first drive which is usually their best because it is so well-scripted.

And believe me, I'm not getting worried or upset. I just saw room for improvement (which, again, is scary).

David Kippe said...

of course you would say the dolphins are the best team ever, that would serve your earlier point. duh.

Jen said...

I hope the Browns don't lie down and die this weekend against Hot Tom and the Pats. Give them a good game and I'll be happy.

Tribe in 4 is my prediction.

I looked for the baseball game last night, but didn't even think to try TBS. I watched Dancing with the Stars, the end of Rock of Love, Two and a Half Men, The Hills and MNF instead. (I'm a girl so I can watch those shows! LOL)

CMFost said...

Isiah was found guilty of sexual harrasment

David Kippe said...

you know, everyone wants to talk about how weak the Pats schedule has been. Well lets look at the flip side and then say the Giants are actually a great team because their only two losses are against teams that are a combined 8-0, and they played Dallas better than anyone with a ton of injuries as the game went on. But that would be foolish to say, and I am a Giants fan. The Pats are awesome, doesn't matter who they have played, they are fantastic. They look completely unbeatable right now.

David Kippe said...

big deal about Thomas, the only person this outcome will have a negative impact on are us, the Cablevision subscribers.

David Kippe said...

jen, sorry to say, Tribe are getting swept, at least i hope they get swept. Go Yanks!

Unknown said...

Let's say there is instant replay in baseball...

What happens when the ump calls a player out (third out) at the plate, but replay shows that he touched the plate, and there was a runner moving from second to third. Since the ump calls the runner out at home, the catcher, believing that the inning is over, does not make a play on the other runner. What happens to that runner? Does he get third? Does he need to go back to second? Does the ump get to use his judgement and say that he would have been called out had the catcher thrown to third?

How about a play like last night... the runner is called safe, but never touched the plate, and in the process of tagging the player, the catcher drops the ball. Since the runner was called safe, the runner does not try to touch home and the catcher doesn't try to tag the player. Upon reviewing the play how does he call it? The runner was neither safe or out... but since the call was safe and there was not a tag, I guess the original call would have to stand. Instant replay would not help this one.

How abot if there is a play at the plate, the catcher attempts to tag the runner, but misses, but the ump calls the runner out. The catcher immediately fires to second to catch the other base runner. However, since the runner trying to score wasn't tagged and initially missed the plate, he goes and tags home plate anyways. Upon review, what happens here? Does the ump reverse his call and call the runner safe at home? The catcher could have tagged the runner at home out, but that would have cost him the chance to throw to second, so does the ump call the player at home out and the runner at second safe? Or does the ump let the play stand because if he hadnt called it that way, the play wouldnt have unfolded as it did.

A safe or an out call affects the rest of a play because the player has to respond based on the call on the field, not based on what replay may reveal. While replay most certainly would help certain circumstances, I think it could have a negative impact in other circumstaces and the outcome would be ambiguous in others.

Jen said...

sparty~ No they're not. The Yanks' pitching is not going to be so lucky this time around.

David Kippe said...

no replay in baseball, human error has always been a big part of the game. and really, the umps are pretty damn good. best officials in all of sports.

David Kippe said...

"lucky this time around?" when in recent memory has the yanks pitching been lucky? Lets Go A-Rod, clap clap clapclapclap.

CMFost said...

Kristopher that is one of the reasons that if there is replay it can be only used for fair or foul calls or Home run or not home run calls

Brian in Oxford said...

But that's a fair point right there, no pun intended. If a fair ball is called foul, how do you reverse it? Umpire's judgment? Well, Reyes probably would have tried for third, but Vlad's gut a gun and we'll call him out at third. Do you just take the strike off the board, so it's back to being a 1-0 count? What if the pitcher's on a strict 100-pitch count? Do his managers count it?

et. bleeping. cetera.

SDW said...

100 out of 100 times, if the catcher drops the ball, the runner will be ruled safe.

He dropped the ball. Period.

And Shanoff got it right. Atkins' double was a Home Run. That game shouldn't have even gone to extras.

That said, being there, I was glad it did end up in extra frames.

David Kippe said...

baseball will not institute replay. the fans who get screwed want it. the players, managers and front offices don't. they already screwed it up with interleague play. leave this alone.

chitown italian said...

Thank you Michael for not being the Cubs catcher anymore.

In the immortal words of Dumb and Dumber: "So you're telling me there's a chance".........Go Cubbies!

But first they have to get past a talented young team playing good ball right now.

Then the hot Rockies or Phillies. Crap!

There is always next year but one can hope and dream.

Natsfan74 said...

Also, why would replay only count for plays at the plate? What if a replay could show Roberts was out stealing 2nd in the ALCS? Or, what if a player steals 2nd and is called safe, but replays clearly show he is out but 2nd base is not reviewable? Then, he scores on a single, and the pitcher is still in the stretch when he's clearly more effective from the wind-up (ever seen Chad Cordero). So, arguably, the replay could have prevented the runner from being on 2nd, which would have stopped him from scoring on a single -- which might not even have happened since the pitcher is so good off of the wind-up? Why would 2nd base be any less important than home plate?

So, the only calls that could be reversed without interrupting the flow of the game are HR/ not HR calls (either fair/foul, or over wall/ not over).

Beetle said...

Jingoist, you are right, also being a lifelong Pats fan and having watched every game of the Belichick error (just about) they actually did look pretty sloppy last night.
The O line didn't dominate they they did against SD and the Jets, the D line wasn't getting a ton of pressure, and the Pats actually looked confused on offense because they certainly did game-plan on facing a dime defense the whole game. As backwards as it may sound, the score might actually have been MORE lopsided if the Bengals didn't lose their LBs so early in the game (might have been).

Beetle said...

SDW, you are 100% incorrect.
There have been plenty of times where the catcher doesn't hold the ball, but blocks the plate, picks up the ball, and then tags the runner out.
Jason Varitek did this to Eric Byrnes in the 2003 ALDS.
Tek actually retrieved the ball from 20 feet away and ran back to tag Byrnes who never went back to touch the plate.

The heroin sheik said...

Wow a Devil Ray won an award. You have to give props to Carlos Pena for the year he had. With all the offensive talent on that team it is kinda funny that the player that might have meant the most to us was a castoff no one wanted. I can't wait for spring training. At least one of the teams I like is in the playoffs. hell two of the three teams I like have won the WS. It was great when the Angels won a few years back and when the Braves won it was more of a relief. Now if the Rays could win one every team I root for would have won a title. Im not holding my breath though.

CMFost said...

sheik the chance of the Rays winning a world series are about the same as A-Rod coming up with a clutch hits in the playoffs. So do not get to excited since it is not going to happen

David Kippe said...

it will be nice to see A-Rod continue to shut up the critics this post season. in the word's of michael kay "A-Rod is A-MAZING!"

The heroin sheik said...

I don't get why A-rod sucks so bad in the playoffs. When I was in high school he destroyed my team single handedly in the state tournament. Of course we both went to small private Christian high schools and one player was all you seemed to need to do well. I remember once trying to catch a linedrive he hit and I swear it almost broke my hand it was hit so hard. Of course Chipper did the same thing to us my freshman year.

Mega said...

Trevor Hoffman is the best closer ever. He's had the chance to save games in the postseason like what, 4 times? His numbers are simply better than Mariano's overall. Period. Don't let ESPN tell you otherwise.

CMFost said...

A-Rod has not shut up his critics, if he shits the bed like normal in the playoffs his great regular season will go down like all his other seasons great during the regular season but when the money is on the line he stinks

Natsfan74 said...

Well, looking foward, the most important closer to talk about is Joe Borowski. He lead the AL in saves, and in blown saves. He's got an astronomical ERA. And, he blew a huge lead against the Yankees this spring. Can he save 1-2 games against the Yankees? He did pitch for the Cubs in 2003, so he has playoff experience. The 2nd most ingriguing closer still alive is Ryan Dempster. Although he has a low number of actual blown saves, he hasn't been dominant all season, and late in the year he didn't even pitch in some save situations. Can either of these two save enough games to end really long WS droughts?

AL -- 2000, 2002, 2004, 1954?
NL -- 2001, 1983, 1908, Never?

David Kippe said...

wow, great argument Dan mega, you convinced me.
Maybe Hoffman gets more chances in the playoffs if he doesn't let 3 run leads go to get into the playoffs? Scott Brosius anyone? Rivera gets the save in that game too. Rivera helps his cause in the playoffs because he gets the save in one game, to set up himself up for another in the next game. wow, hoffman better than rivera, what a joke. ayfkm? i hope that was sarcasm dan mega, please tell me it was.

David Kippe said...

no cmfost, he just hasn't shut up red sox fans like yourself. people got on his case that he couldn't even come up with the big hit in the late innings of even regular season games. nice pitch papelboner, gone. will he be judged on his post season performance? sure he will, and his regular season play and flair for the dramatic will carry over. "an A-Bomb for A-Rod." i really want to hear sterling say that when he hits it off Dice-K. that would be the ultimate insensitive home run call of all time.

CMFost said...

my take on the Playoffs - first the ALDS

Yankees in 4 (the Red Sox helped the Yankees by giving Cleveland the short series and not allowing cleveland to be able to use CC and Carmona twice)

Red Sox in 3 - Red Sox are better then the Angels in all phases of the game especially pitching

Phillies in 5
Cubs in 5

chitown italian said...


Indians in 4
Angels in 4

Phillies in 3
Diamondbacks in 5

Indians in 5
Phillies in 6

Phillies in 4

Sorry Jen, Sorry to me. I just think the Phils are smoking right now and unless they blow up like the Tigers of last year they will ride Utley, Rollins, and Howard to the win.

David Kippe said...

whoa? the red sox are a better defensive team than the Angels? the red sox are a better base running team than the Angels? small ball matters in the playoffs, and the sox are not that at all. deeper bench in LA. that bullpen is in question with the sox now too. no way is it a sweep. but typical of cmfost. all or nothing predicitions for his teams, just like Mike pointed out yesterday.

David Kippe said...

Tigers of last year got swept in the world series.

Jingoist said...

Beetle, couple of observations with the Pats...

They barely blitzed, so the front 4 was all the Pats were using to rush Palmer- which means even keeping 1 TE or blocking back in to protect, the front line would be outnumbered to get to Palmer, yet they still did a good job hurrying some throws. They just kept the LBs and DBs back to cover Johnson/Housh. So I can let that one (lack of pressure) go.

And I think the offense just played conservatively by playing "keep away" (see: TOP: 37:24 to 22:36); in part because (as reported on MNF) the Bengals' "D" has to rely on turnovers.

Personally, I thought that was a weird statement. It's like a backwards compliment, suggesting the Bengals cannot shut anyone down so they play aggressively to (hopefully) force turnovers and get: a) good field position and b) points off said turnovers.

And look what happened- the 1 TD for the Bengals came off an INT. And that's because the Pats were not sticking it to them on the ground (as you suggest they should with the Bengals default Dime package). Well, after that TD, the Pats gave a heavy dose of run. Observe: Pre-INT by Brady: 4 drives, 5 running plays. Post-INT by Brady: 5 drives, 20 running plays.

There you go.

Unknown said...

Have to go with Sparty. Both Hoffman and Rivera are on the downslopes of their careers but Rivera was flat out better. Total number of saves is nowhere near as important. Just like Favre said Marino was a better QB - and he was. Yes Rivera blew two big saves in his life. The reason we remember them is because he was absolutely perfect for about 6 years before that. Hoffman was never as dominant in his prime.

The mark of a closer is when the money is on the line. Having to protect a 3 run lead in the 9th against a sub .500 team means nothing. The blown save against Arizona had more to do with his throwing error in any event.

Unknown said...

As far as the replay goes I agree with Kristopher. It is hard to overturn a call once the umpire on the field made a ruling. Then it all becomes a judgement call. I can see replay for home runs or ball that bounce near the line and go out of play since they would be ground rule doubles.

Also I agree that baseball umps are the best officials in any sport. If we need 3 angles in super slow motion to figure it out, then go with the umps call. It has worked for 100 years.

David Kippe said...

not sure if i understand the favre/marino comparison. favre was a bigger winner than marino as well. individual awards and a super bowl ring. maybe comparing Montana to Marino, people will tell you Montana is the better even though he doesn't have the career numbers of Marino.

Beetle said...

Thanks for your conjecture Sparty,
Now, here are the facts;
Fielding; Red Sox 2nd in the AL Angels 10th.
Pitching; Red Sox 1st in starters ERA, Angles 9th.
Red Sox 2nd in bullpen ERA, Angels third.
Bench - Sox, Ellsbury (future MVP winner, write it down) Eric Hinske (former starting 3rd baseman for Toronto) Alex Cora (one of the best utility men in the game) Doug Mirabelli (a starting catcher for many teams).
Who exactly is on the Angels' bench?

David Kippe said...

look down the stretch though, we know the red sox bullpen is in trouble, thats why they shut everyone down.

Darklawdog said...

You patriots fans are ridiculous. Do you honestly think that they score would have been worse if the Bengals had all of there starting linebackers for the entire game? The Bengals secondary played well despite what Moss did. When BB was going 5 wide against the Bengals the game was actually within reach. When you started pounding the defense to death, because the linebacking corps. was decimated, you started to wear down a depleted defense. That is when the Patriots took control of the game.

So in recap, not until the middle of the 2nd quarter when the Benglas played Schlegel (sp?), who had a bad ankle, and Dhani Jones, who had to play special teams, did the patriots actually take control of the game.

Up till that point Brady was getting frustrated with actually being hit by defenders and they had only scored a total of 10 points.

Which brings me to another point. The bengals defense was worn out because they had to play special teams as well as defense. So yeah, the score would have been much worse if all the Bengals starters were able to play *sarcasm for people who can't tell*. Learn to look beyond what you see. At this point you are nothing but idiots spouting off about how bad your team looked playing against a vastly depleted team.

CMFost said...

lawdog that was the worst game the Patriots played this season and still made it look easy. For the rest of the NFL that has to be pretty scary.

Jingoist said...

Actually Lawdog, that was kind of my point... the Pats were playing into the Bengals defensive scheme up until and including the interception (and subsequent TD). After that, they finally realized they should run against the depleted LB corp and it worked in their favor.

And I said, I was disappointed because the Pats were not as sharp in this game as previous games this year.

You'll never hear me spouting how perfect the teams I root for play. There's always room for improvement.

hutlock said...

It's gonna be HILLLLLARRRRRIOUS watching Sparty eat that crow after the Yankees lose. Christ, man -- the Tribe tied for the best record in MLB and you talk about them like they're a Little League squad. You've already got your rotation set for BOSTON! Neither one of you has won ANYTHING yet! It's an old saying, but it bears repeating:
This is why they play the games.

David Kippe said...

i have yet to bad mouth the tribe, just believe in my boys. GO YANKS! I HATE THE SOX!

CMFost said...


David Kippe said...

@toddthesecond, i will gladly eat my crow like i have since 2001 if they do lose. I love october baby!

CMFost said...

sparty how would you like that crow cooked?

David Kippe said...

wow, how much money has dolan given to people who no longer work for him?

David Kippe said...

lol. gonna be fun boys...and girls, sorry jen.

Travis said...

Boston Red Sox

81 errors in 5,935 total chances and a .986 Fielding %. The Sox also stole 96 bases which certainly would have rivaled the Angels had Jacoby Ellsbury spent an entire season in Boston.

Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim

101 errors in 5,959 total chances for a .983 fielding %. The Angels stole 139 bases on the season.

Better Defense? Boston!

Better run game? Equal.

Travis said...

Everyone makes a big deal that Carmona wont pitch twice against the Yankees. I think the bigger story is that the Yankees wont be able to pitch Pettite twice.

Unknown said...


"sheik the chance of the Rays winning a world series are about the same as A-Rod coming up with a clutch hits in the playoffs."

So I'm assuming you mean that the Rays won a world series in the past but haven't for a long time?

I'm referring of course to the 2004 ALDS Game 2 when Torii Hunter had hit a solo HR in the top 12 to put the Twins ahead 6-5. A-Rod came up with runners on 1st and 2nd and 1 out and hit a double off of Joe Nathan over Hunter's head (no small feat) to drive in the tying run and move the winning run to third. Matsui sac flied the winning run in and the Yanks won. Had A-rod struckout the Yanks probably lose the series because they would have been down 2-0 in the 5 game series because Santana had shutout the Yanks in Game 1. Oh yeah, and A-rod had already homered in that game 2.

Then in Game 4 of that series A-rod led off the 9th in a tie game and doubled off of Joe Nathan but could not score due to the rest of the team (Sheffield popped up, Bernie and Matsui struckout) screwing up. He then came up in the 11th and doubled off of Lohse and eventually scored the game and series winning run.

So, yeah. A-rod hasn't come through recently. But by no means has he never come through.

David Kippe said...

wait, .983 is closer to .986 than 96 is to 139? how is it that the base running is equal? but the fielding that sox are the clear cut better team?

CMFost said...

Guy have the Yankees won anything with A-Rod on the team other then a division title

David Kippe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Beetle said...

Yes Lawdog,
I do believe the Pats MAY have scored more if the Bengals linebackers didn't get hurt.
Because the Bengals were forced to play dime defenses, NE made the pass secondary and ran for almost all of the second half.
Plus, the Patriots put in a very specific game plan for each and every game. That game plan certainly didn't not call for 2 linebackers to be played the whole game, so the Pats had to create a new game plan mid-stream.
Considering Cleveland put up 55 against Cincy, and the best Offense in football "only" put up 34, I don't think my theory is too far fetched.

David Kippe said...

cmfost. the entire yankees team for the most part has sucked in the playoffs since end of game 4 of the 2004 ALCS. Not one player can carry a team in baseball by himself, he is not the only one to blame. sure he has come up short, but do not blame him alone for the crappy yankee pitching, and untimely hitting of garbage play.

Travis said...

20 errors is a huge difference.

The reason I call the base running equal is because of Jacoby Ellsbury. If he was with the Sox all season they would be virtually tied with the Angels in SB's.

He was 41-48 in the minors and 9-9 during his september callup.

chitown italian said...

I know it's playoff baseball but AS Roma is taking on ManU in England.

I probably wouldn't be that hyped but once you see a game in Europe you get a whole new sense of fandom.

Tell me how many games any of you have been to where an inter-Country (inter-State: UF FSU MIA or OU TX anyone) rivalry includes hundreds of armed guards? Semi-auto weapons anyone?

What about 8 foot plexiglass that separates one teams fans from another?

Has anyone had to show ID and get their name put on a ticket before they were allowed to BUY the ticket?

It's just another world over there. Totally amazing. Once you go it's like twinkies to a fat kid. You're hooked!

David Kippe said...

you cannot project his stolen base total out like that. and 20 errors is not a lot considering there are 5000 opportunties. look at the percentages, duh.

The heroin sheik said...

chitown I have been to rangers celtic and I agree that there is nothing better than a good derby in soccer. I am watching the game now and I wouldn't be surprised to see this game get out of control since the last time the two teams played ManU beat the crap out of Roma.

Travis said...

20 errors is a lot no matter how you look at it.

My point is Boston is a different team with Ellsbury then it was from April to August without him.

In September Boston stole 26 bases and commited 9 errors.

The Angels stole 20 bases and commited 16 errors.

Again I say Boston has the fielding advantage and the base stealing is equal.

Brian in Oxford said...

I think some of the commenters need an eight-foot plexiglass wall between them...

chitown italian said...

Roma's D looked horrible last year and Rooney made them look like a bunch of school girls.

I am definitely interested to see what happens this year.

I can't watch since I am at work. I am just getting updates from Gamecast which is dull.

David Kippe said...

why am i arguing for the angels. the yanks are taking home the series anyway, go YANKS!

The heroin sheik said...

roma is looking good and manu is lookin pretty flat. it is a very physical game.

hutlock said...

Sparty posted at 2:15 PM: "I have yet to bad mouth the Tribe, just believe in my boys."

Sparty posted at 8:46 AM: "GO YANKS! THE TRIBE SUCKS! JOBA RULES!"

Just sayin', Sparty. ;-)

David Kippe said...

you call that bad mouthing? Boston fans have been running around for 100 years wearing tshirts that say yankees suck, but i wouldn't say that is bad mouthing.

Darklawdog said...

If BB is the supposed genius that all you patriots fan say he is, the adjustment would have been made much earlier in the game. And in reality, knowing the Bengals were playing with 4 linebackers, 3 of which were not with the team to start the season, the game plan should have been pound them into submission to begin with. Some amazing Genius.

Please fully explain how the supposed best team in NFL history didn't dominate the Bengals 8th 9th and 10th string linebackers, but would have dominated there top 3. Because quite frankly it's a load of shit that I don't want to be walking through.

What I saw, was a vulnerable patriots team playing against a team who didn't have the roster depth to compete. Also, apparently BB isn't the genius you all make him out to be.

The Patriots will lose at least 2 games this year and I wish that my Bungles (yeah and I mean bungles) had the opportunity to play them full strength.

I still think the Pats are the best team in the league, but if I were other teams I wouldn't be frightened to play them.

rc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ToddTheJackass said...

Take it position by position with the Red Sox and Angels in terms of defense:

1B - Both Kotchmann and Youk are pretty darn good. Tie
2B - Pedroia may have slightly less range, but I believe has around 10 fewer errors on the season. Edge Sawx.
SS - Lugo's RF this year is down, and Cabrera is criminally robbed of the GG by an underserving Jeter a few years running now. Edge Angels.
3B - Lowell is pretty sure handed, Figgins is suited better for the OF. Edge Sawx.
LF - Manny/Garret Anderson. They both suck. Edge to Garret in Anaheim, edge to Manny at Fenway.
CF - Coco should win a gold glove this year. Matthews is hurt and his range is overrated due to highlight reel catches.
RF - Vlad's arm is still amazing, but his range has certainly dwindled these days. Drew occassionally takes some awkward routes, but has better speed at this point and an underrated arm. Edge Sawx.
C - Admittedly I don't know enough about Napoli's defense to make the comp with Varitek.

Obviously that's not the greatest evaluation ever, but it's something. Keith Law has a pretty good explanation that the Sox rate I think 2nd or 3rd in the AL in fielding balls in play compared to the Angels which are 10th. That's probably a better rationalization, but I don't know the stats off hand to back up how those figures work exactly.

CMFost said...

sorry youk should win the Gold Glove at 1b this year. He has not made an error this error at first. I think defensively that gives him the edge

chipp said...


Scroll down to "Postseason Batting"

Even in the '04 ALCS A-Rod hit only .258, but had a .378 OBP. In '05 hit .133, but .381 OBP. Hmmm, maybe his average sucks because no one pitches to him? That can't possibly be the case!

As for '06, OK ... he sucked. You're going to chastize him for one abysmal year and many good ones?

Chaddogg said...

All the Yankees and Sox fans should go home and shut up on this board....

The Cubbies are going all the way, baby. Lou's driving the bandwagon, and we're steamrolling through this postseason. 99 years of past-due momentum and karma coming straight at y'all. And god forbid you set foot in Wrigley for a game - you might get killed by the crumbling concrete the fans will be so loud.

2007 playoffs are over. Chicago is the team of destiny.

Geoff said...

I was going to root for New York to win the series this year. But I forgot how obnoxious their fans are. I'd like to thank this forum for reminding me. Having said that, GO TRIBE!

(btw, whoever said the Tigers got swept in the World Series last year was wrong. They won game 2)

Eagle in Brighton said...

Sox in 4, Yanks in 5. Showdown in Fenway two weeks from now.

I can't wait to hear pathetic flyover states (see DS) bitch about the East Coast supremacy.

Eagle in Brighton said...

@Lawdog1214 : The Bengals were lucky the Pats didn't drop another 38 spot on you. " I wish that my Bungles (yeah and I mean bungles) had the opportunity to play them full strength" my ass. The Pats are without RHarrison and Seymour and NE still handed Cincy it's jock.

An undefeated season is irrational for any squad, but this Patriot's iteration looks about as balanced/dominant as any team of the past decade and a half.

And Chaddogg, go burn a goat in effigy or something: your WS champion's coming from the AL East.