Wednesday, May 09, 2007

Wednesday 05/09 A.M. Quickie:
Steroids, Alcohol, Suns Rout, Bonds 745

MLB Steroids Scandal, Cont'd: Don't eff with George Mitchell. He knows that he can create sizzle – if not steak – in his investigation, simply by "naming names."

And so he generates publicity for his effort – if not cooperation from current players, who will ignore his requests for interviews and medical records – by dropping names like...

Sosa and Palmeiro.

That's all he's got? And it's not like he's actually proving they used steroids. He's merely asking for their medical records.

But he throws around their names, and – as with everything in this scandal – merely being mentioned is tantamount to guilt by common perception.

I'm not defending Sosa or Palmeiro or any other player. And I'm not sure yet how I fall on the question of whether these players should cooperate: If they're innocent, why not? But the mild libertarian instinct in me says they are under no concrete obligation.

(Here's what I really want to know: Let's run a poll, much like the controversial Bonds one from last week, asking how many baseball fans really give a damn about the ongoing steroids story anyway? I'm betting the answers will shock and shame the media. )

MLB clubhouse alcohol bans: I suppose it's sad that Hancock's death was the impetus for the new rules throughout MLB teams, but they were long overdue. The question/pressure now will be: If your team hasn't banned alcohol from the clubhouse yet, why not – and when will it happen?

Suns thump Spurs by 20: And, remember, Game 2 was in San Antonio. I AM AN IDIOT. Man, did the Suns seem inspired. (FROM THE RESULT, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY I DIDN'T WATCH THE GAME) Maybe it was Mike D'Antoni's decision to put beefy Kurt Thomas in the starting lineup, tweaking the fun-n-gun offense but putting more pressure on Tim Duncan. (ISN'T IT NICE TO SCOUR ALL OF THE MORNING-AFTER ANALYSIS TO SOUND MORE INTELLIGENT ABOUT A GAME I DIDN'T WATCH? YEESH. ISN'T IT NICE THAT I MADE THE SAME MISTAKE ON MONDAY TALKING ABOUT GAME 1? I WILL NOW GO BERATE MYSELF FOR THE REST OF THE AFTERNOON. YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHY I PUT MY EMAIL ADDRESS IN THE CORNER. ONLY TWO "YOU'RE WRONG!!!" EMAILS HELPING ME OUT? I'VE BEEN OFFLINE ALL MORNING BUT HAVE ACCESS TO EMAIL.)

Cavs go up 2-0 on Nets: Zzzz...

UPDATE: I know it's late in the day already, but if you're not listening to JE and Tas doing their podcasts at The Basketball Jones, you're totally missing out. Best sports podcast out there.

Bonds: 745. (Wow, this is approaching much faster than anyone thought, isn't it? Whether or not you think he used PEDs, you have to admit that it's unlikely he's using them now. So stipulated, how do you explain this season's power surge? Oh, right: 'Roiding or not, he's the best power hitter of all time.)

UPDATE: How did I not write earlier about Curt Schilling ripping Barry Bonds on the radio? Seems like easy pickins.

Maddux vs. Smoltz tonight: A rare matchup between Hall of Fame pitchers. (No: Santana vs. Halladay doesn't count... yet.) How many lock Hall of Fame pitchers are in MLB right now? Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, Clemens, Johnson, Schilling?, Hoffman? I know there are more.

How do I know that this is the Mets' year? They have already gone to the team-wide "Crew Cuts in Solidarity."

Stud: Josh Beckett. First to 7 wins. (Tigers, too: 8 straight Ws.)

Dud: Jorge Reyes. (See this LIO post.)

My favorite on-field promotion of the baseball season is coming up: The pink bats used on Mother's Day. (Remember Bill Hall last year?) Apparently, more than 200 players have signed up to use them. Rah Moms!

McNabb calls Eagles first-pick of QB Kolb "shocking," but tried to downplay it. Why didn't he say this: "The Eagles have to think about what's going to happen after I've retired in 10 years. But Kolb will have big shoes to fill after I've led the team to multiple Super Bowl titles. Heh." ("Heh" necessary.)

Steve Smith got paid: And deserves it.

Ronnie Brown is too fat? After drafting him for my fantasy team the last two seasons, I might be inclined to agree with the Dolphins if they want him to get into better shape. But they're just sucking me back in, tempting me to use a high first-round pick on him... again....

NBA All-Rookie: The first-team is a testament to Lottery "names": Roy, Bargnani, Foye, Gay, Aldridge... and Garbajosa, a Euroleague find (and, combined with Bargnani, Exhibit A why the Raptors' "European Invasion" strategy led them, in one year, from the first pick of the 2006 NBA Draft to a division title and the playoffs).

The second team is fascinating: Paul Millsap and Craig Smith were second-rounders viewed as stereotypical "tweeners"; here's a reminder: Scouting is an imperfect science. Oh, and Adam Morrison somehow made it onto the team, even though he was horrible. Nice to see the Bobcats' Rookie of the Year, Walter Hermann, made the second-team, too.

Baseball draft on TV: I'm late on this by two days, but I love this idea. If you don't like it, you don't have to watch it. But it made zero sense for baseball in the era of "Moneyball" and an increasing (if still small) profile of college baseball NOT to televise the draft. The only question: Who will emerge as this cottage industry's Mel Kiper?

-- D.S.

121 comments:

Eric said...

Hoffman but not Rivera?? I think that's backwards, I don't think Hoffman makes it, but Rivera, no matter what kind of year he's having is a lock for the HOF.

Also... Game 2 was in Phoenix... what are you talking about?

verbal97 said...

I suspect Bonds is using something undetectable, and I will believe so until proven otherwise (which by my statement is impossible).

Luke Bell said...

I didn't realize San Antonio's home court featured the Suns logo. Kudos to the Spurs for extending such hospitality.

Justin said...

I think people are hitting the snooze button on the Cavs because of the new style of play that Coach Mike has instituted. The Cavs are now one of the best defensive teams in the league and no one wants to watch defense and half court basketball. They want to watch the runners and gunners ala Suns and Warriors. I say keep sleeping on the Cavs and IF we make it to the ECF this team might surprise a few folks.

RevScottDeMangeMD said...

HOF: Pedro and Rivera

Ava's Adventures said...

My thoughts mirror verbal97's.

I'm convinced that HGH or another undetectable substance is coursing through Bond's veins.

Joey said...

The mainstream media can talk AL East/Boston/New York all they want but the best division in baseball is the AL Central. Cliff Lee pitched a CG 1 ER in only his 2nd start of the season last night.

Is the Zzzz about the Cavs/Nets for Zydrunas Ilgauskas? This series may not be fast paced up and down, but it has been packed with tension and excitement if you actually watch it. It is just crazy seeing the Cavs get rebound after rebound and capitalize. Their rebounding is going to be the key to see how far they can go. Game 3 will be huge.

Ftrain said...

Man i better upgrade to HD soon, the logo in the center court look like the Suns logo!

seriously you kill me sometimes.

Anyway you realize this was the Sun's first home win against the Spurs since '05. Just sayin'

CMFost said...

Eric - Hoffman is the MLB record holder for saves with 491 and has a career ERA of 2.74. I would say he and Rivera who is 4th all time in saves with 416 will be in the Hall of Fame.

CMFost said...

Joey - I would agree with you the Al Central is the best division in baseball. I would rank the divisions this way

1. Al Central
2. NL West (all but one team over .500)
3. NL EAST
4. AL West (3 of the 4 Teams .500 or better)
5. AL East (sorry bit there is only one team over .500 in this division)
6. NL Central

CMFost said...

Interesting Yankees Stat which does not bode well for them.

They are 12-5 against the AL Central and AL West but only 3-11 against the AL East the division they play almost half there games against.

verbal97 said...

cmfost,

do you really think those 14 games are a good sample set to judge the remaining 60? The analyst in me says your statement lacks statistical power. I highly doubt the Yankees will have anywhere close to a .214 winning pct against the East by season's end.

Mr. Thursday said...

Mariano Rivera seems like a safe bet. Assuming both Rivera and Hoffman make it (though, with Goose unable to get it, who knows?) the door might open wide enough for Billy Wagner, though Billy doesn't have the Hoffman/Rivera mystique of the Entire Career With a Single Team. That and he's come up memorably small in the post-season, which is the kind of thing baseball writers harp on about.

If Mussina can hang on a few more years, and approach 300 wins/3000 strikeouts, people might start arguing for him. If he retires today, no chance.

Nobody else has a chance, or is close enough to have a chance in the next couple of years. Kenny Rogers is too far off, and too mediocre. Same for Jamie Moyer.

rukrusher said...

Suns thump Spurs by 20: And, remember, Game 2 was in San Antonio. Man, did the Suns seem inspired. Maybe it was Mike D'Antoni's decision to put beefy Kurt Thomas in the starting lineup, tweaking the fun-n-gun offense but putting more pressure on Tim Duncan.

I know the game is on late in New York but c'mon Dan, you are above this mistake.

CMFost said...

I just found it an interesting stat. It way mean nothing but it may also spot a troubling trend for Yankees fans.

rukrusher said...

Maddux vs. Smoltz tonight: A rare matchup between Hall of Fame pitchers. (No: Santana vs. Halladay doesn't count... yet.) How many lock Hall of Fame pitchers are in MLB right now? Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, Clemens, Johnson, Schilling?, Hoffman? I know there are more.

Pedro.

thirdstringjd said...

I hate to seem like I'm making light of a situation BUT -

The MLB ban on alcohol in the clubhouse is a little over board if you ask me. I realize that the death of Josh Hancock was a tradegy as it is when anyone loses their life from drinking and driving. However, it's not the clubhouse policy of serving booze that resulted in his death.

Should the ball park just stop serving alcohol because people are also leaving there and driving home? How about restaurants? or bars?

I mean at some point don't we have to stop and realize that people need to be responsible for their own actions - maybe the alcohol in the clubhouse should be bought and not supplied for free - but it wasn't beer in the locker room that killed him.

This is the first time I can remember where this policy has been brought up as the cause of a death like this which means for decades this has gone on without an incident - now because of one admittedly tragic event it's a huge problem that my team doesn't ban alcohol in the clubhouse.

CMFost said...

I would say looking at Mussina's career stats that he would be a boderline hall of famer if he retired today.

240-135 3.64 ERA

Anthony said...

Yes, the Spurs must be pretty generous hosts...not only was the court adorned with the Suns logo, but the "home" team went so far as to let Phoenix wear their home uni's and even let in hundreds of Suns' fans with Steve Nash bandaids. I wonder if Phoenix will return the favor for the next two games...

rafael said...

Unlike the football and basketball drafts, baseball drafts are full of players noone has heard of and that will not likely make it to the majors within 5 years.


awesome



Bonds is not on anything. He's always had that swing and that eye for the ball. People just like to hate on athletes that don't fit the 'role model' standard. Get over it.

chipp said...

Rafael: Good point. I recall the media was down on Barkley for not being a good role model. Then he threw it back and said that parents should be role models for their kids. Now he is the media. I'm not sure what any of this means.

verbal97 said...

rafa,

Maybe he always had a nice eye and a nice swing, but one thing's for certain, Bonds didn't always have that body. And my contention, and I believe most people's contention, is that he wouldn't be even close to approaching Aaron without the extra girth.

verbal97 said...

cmfost,

All Yankee fans will admit that they've had a lousy start, but that's not necessarily an indication of the near future.

Also, I agree with you on Mussina. My feeling is that in the era of the 5 man rotation 240 wins is the new 300, if you think about it mathematically.

Matt T said...

Smoltz has already gone up against Glavine twice this year.

This is the first match up between Smoltz and Maddux in 12 years. Smoltz beat Maddux the year Maddux won the Cy in 95 and Smoltz won it in 96.

Can you tell I'm looking forward to this game? My two favorite pitchers all time both on the mound.

CMFost said...

raf - not to be mean but what dream world are you living in. Bond is not on anything?? Are you kidding?? He has already admitted that he did the cream and the clear before yes he said he did not know they were steriods (not sure if I believe that)but to believe that he is not doing something that probably can not be detected by testing is ludicris.

verbal97 said...

ludicris? Is that just how you flow cmfost?

CMFost said...

Stud - Varitek 4-4 with a HR
Dud - V. Zambrano - Toronto

Boomhauertjs said...

"I think people are hitting the snooze button on the Cavs because of the new style of play that Coach Mike has instituted. The Cavs are now one of the best defensive teams in the league and no one wants to watch defense and half court basketball. They want to watch the runners and gunners ala Suns and Warriors. I say keep sleeping on the Cavs and IF we make it to the ECF this team might surprise a few folks. "

I agree with Justin 100%! Go ahead and sleep on the Cavs, Shanoff. This team is playing the kind of basketball that wins playoff games.

Todd said...

Mussina's probably out right now. He hasn't won a Cy Young and doesn't have a ring, (though he was huge in the game 7 of the 2003 ALCS in relief). I like Mussina a lot, but right now I think he's out, while Schilling is borderline, but probably in based on his reputation of being a clutch postseason pitcher for the Red Sox and Phillies.

Jim Callis would be an awesome analyst for the MLB draft. He has the best chat on ESPN.com right now IMO.

I'm with Verbal, I think it's entirely likely that Bonds is on HGH. Same with Clemens, and probably a ton of other guys.

Tyler said...

Rivera is definitely a lock, and he'll be the one to really swing open the door for relievers. Hoffman will get in, as will Pedro Martinez. I'm not sure Schilling is quite a hall of famer yet. As someone who was glued to the TV for both the D'Backs and Red Sox world series performances, there's no doubting his postseason heroics, but his regular season numbers probably aren't good enough to get into the HOF... he's never won a CY award (although he probably should have beaten out the Unit in '02, the year where he almost had more wins than walks), and his career line is 211-139, 3.44 ERA. 3000 strikeouts helps him, but I think he needs two more almost-dominant years (preferably with the Red Sox) to really be considered. If he can get above 240 or 250 wins, then he's really in the conversation.

Tyler said...

heck, another title wouldn't hurt Schilling's chances, either. :)

rukrusher said...

Not to bash on Schilling, but if he is HOF based on postseason what makes him different from Petite? Is Andy HOF material?

Tyler said...

Pettitte's career line is 188-105, 3.79. Right now, he's a Hall of Very Good Candidate.

verbal97 said...

rukrusher, you have to realize that since Schilling can't keep his mouth shut and Pettite is rather quiet, Schilling is in and Pettite is out.

Dan Mega said...

Isn't Hoffman the all-time leader in saves? Why would someone question him and question leaving out Mariano Rivera? What makes Mariano so special (besides his uniform) compared to Hoffman? If Hoffman was in a Yankees uniform for his entire career I doubt Mariano would be so highly regarded. Personally I feel they should both get in as they are probably the best closers of the last 10+ years.

Banning alcohol in the clubhouse is really, really stupid. Hancock had a problem. He didn't get wasted in the clubhouse, the problem was that he was drinking and driving. If you want to make an argument for banning alcohol in the clubhouse because one person can't handle it responsibly, should alcohol be banned in bars too? C'mon now...

Patriots64 said...

@ Rafael

I am not a Bonds hater, I drafted him in the fantasy league. He has admitted under oath to taking steroids "unknowingly" and failed a drug test in 2006 as well for amphetamines. He hasn't sued the authors of Game of Shadows so that tells you something. He probably is on HGH as we speak.

Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Raffy maybe Clemens and obviously Canseco all took PED's! If you don't believe that shouldn't you be helping OJ find the real killers!!

TBender said...

Rafael, Bonds was headed for the HOF, as a 30-30 guy--a player with power and speed, an all-around great player.

Then he got bigger--freakishly so. He changed his game and appearance at a time when players start to decline, not get better.

No, he didn't take anything nor is he still on something...

Todd said...

MLB Studs and Duds:

Studs:
1. Cliff Lee
2. Justin Morneau
3. Chad Gaudin
4. Josh Beckett
5. Miguel Cabrera

Duds:
1. Victor Zambrano
2. Horacio Ramirez
3. Jacque Jones
4. Mike Wood
5. Travis Hafner

Lawdog1214 said...

In reading yesterday's comments, I noticed many active posters mention Dayton. I am original from Dayton and graduated from the University of Dayton with an engineering degree back in 2004.

I miss the "Ghetto" and all the bars on Brown St.

No matter what Bonds is on (and I highly doubt he is on anything now), it is very difficult to put a round bat on a round ball traveling at 80+ mph. He definately has the best hand/eye coordination in baseball.

If PED's improved performance that much, I could just get on 'roids now and be in the big leagues in a year or so.

verbal97 said...

dan, look at Mariano's postseason numbers. Remember, postseason matters most when you look at a person's resume for personal accolades, even though it's a team game. (Yes, I'm bitter).

Lance A Boyle said...

Pedro is a Hall of Famer.

Steroids... If you do take a poll, yes, I care that it has ruined baseball for me forever. I don't see how Bonds can look his godfather in the eye... you know, Willie Mays, the guy who hit 660 home runs without being juiced and while missing two years to serve in the army. It disgusts me to see his name drop down the all-time list and will disgust me more when/if Sosa passes him.

You've got real heroes, like Ted Williams, who served TWO tours in wartime and still managed to hit 521 homers without using PED. But, there sits Mark McGwire ahead of him on the all-time home run list. I was shouting, "Steroids!" when McGwire was hitting his 70 home runs. Everyone knew it, but no one cared. As much as I hate Bonds, I don't think it's fair for him to take ALL the heat. Throw McGwire in there with him. And it wouldn't shock me to find the Rocket's name come up sometime.

And it's not just individuals who are affected. What if one of Bonds' tainted home runs ends up knocking a deserving team out of the playoffs? Other teams and their fans are affected just as much as the record books. I think fans should be MORE incensed, not less.

There have always been injustices in baseball stats. Different eras produce different types of stats. The exclusion of black players for so many years distorts the stats. But this is the one era when blatant cheating ruins the game. To me, even though I grew up in the 70s, the real golden era of baseball is the 50s, 60s, and 70s. The league was all-inclusive. The results weren't tainted. The stats weren't tainted.

Brian in Oxford said...

Is Pedro going to get a crew-cut too? They could use the greasy droppings-off to heat a family of four next winter, that's for sure. He's definitely HoF. Remember, Koufax got in with a shorter career already, and that's the comparison, for dominance.

The Cavs coach said they ran one play last night down the stretch...give the ball to LeBron. Now if that's not the test of star-vs-team, I don't know what is.

And Dan, we can forgive you for forgetting game 1 was in Phoenix....but you HAVE to avoid that mistake after last night.

What's the deal with Toronto, anyways? That's a scary freefall going on there. Too bad Shea Hillenbrand isn't around to kick some butts around that clubhouse. (sigh)

CMFost said...

I think there are 2 reason why Bonds takes a lot of heat.

1. He is about to break what is considered the greatest record in all of sports.

2. He is a complete ass and an admitted steriods user(knowingly or unknowingly he did admit to it). Which while we all think and know Sosa, McGwire, etc.... all did steriods, Bonds is one of the few that we have proof that they did it.

Todd said...

Oh Mariano is definitely in. He's the best closer of all time. There's no chance he doesn't get in. He'll be a first ballot probably at about 90%.

I believe Pedro has the highest winning pct. of any pitcher all time, and also I think is the only active pitcher to be among the top 50 career ERA (among qualified leaders). Pedro's 1997-2002 might be the single greatest stretch of pitching in the history of baseball. Consider he did all that during the steroids era, and for the most part in the AL East.

Pettite's got some work to do, but if he could pitch for 4 or 5 more years, he's got a chance. I doubt he pitches that long though.

ndyanksfan05 said...

The ban on alcohol in the club house is as effective at curbing athlete drunk driving as me having to put my liquids in a little baggy while going through security at the airport is at curbing terrorists...its makes everyone feel all warm and fuzzy without actually doing anything.

People need to take responsibility for their actions. Punishing a group of people because of the mistakes of an individual is not only unfair to the majority but also an insult to their intelligence and maturity.

SF said...

Hoffman is arguably the best regular season closer of all time.

Rivera IS the best post-season closer of all time.

Both in the HOF.

Jason said...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=boyd/070508&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab2pos2

Please tell me that I'm not the only person outraged by the crap in this article and the points Boyd attempts to make.

I'm getting beyond sick and tired of the race angle in the Bonds story, especially since the person he's passing is black. It's not about his race, it's about the fact that he's an asshole, and the only reason these articles are being written (ad nauseum it would seem) is because ESPN realizes absolutely no one who watches baseball wants to see Barry break the record and is trying to guilt people into watching.

I know I sound pissed, and believe me, I am.

/boycotting ESPN

chipp said...

Banning alcohol in the clubhouses is not so much about safety, but liability. If a team offered its players FREE alcohol after the games, they could be seen as liable in a wrongful death suit. I'm not a lawyer; can anyone confirm/refute this?

Matt T said...

chipp-
You have a good point. Its the same thing as a bar or restaurant 'over serving' someone. Or hosting a party and someone leaves and injures/kills someone. There is a case for that.

I'm not a lawyer, but work in Risk Management. I'm sure the lawyers on here could explain better.

It does seem silly though, Josh was drinking at the bar, not the clubhouse.

Marty McKee said...

Hoffman??????

verbal97 said...

Thanks Jason, I was in a bad mood to begin with, I didn't need to read that too. My rebuttal:

Excuse me, but did "Dr." Boyd really use OJ Simpson to back his ridiculously stupid argument??? How can anyone take him or anything he says seriously ever again?

And I'm sick of the race divide in the Bonds ESPN poll being used as evidence. It would be interesting if the same poll was taken with Griffey instead of Bonds. I guarantee you that the numbers between races would be more even. I don't think blaming white people for not supporting Bonds is the correct conclusion from the poll, but rather why are so many African Americans oblivious to the fact that he's cheated the game? And finally, how can anyone say there's no proof of Bonds' PED usage, when he admitted in a courtroom that he did and he tested positive for amphetamines???

Bayma said...

This whole rush to take beer out of the clubhouses is stupid. It is also not linked to Hancock's death. There is nothing wrong with guys having a couple beers after the game. If there are some guys on a team who can't handle it and have a problem, then keep them away from it through internal measures -- not by punishing everyone on the team/s.

I really hate how it seems that every time something bad happens we have to ban something. Man up for Christ's sake. Take responsibility for your own actions and stop babying and coddling everyone.

Geoff said...

They may as well not televise the MLB draft. I think maybe 4 people will watch. Not really exciting when you don't know the people in the draft. NFL draft is fun because college football is so popular and you know all the players. Same with the NBA draft.

GuyInTheCorner said...

From Monday...
"Spurs beat Suns in Game 1. Was it the head-butt nose injury to Steve Nash that cost the Suns a critical Game 1 victory in San Antonio?"
From Today...
Suns thump Spurs by 20: And, remember, Game 2 was in San Antonio.

I have no idea why Dan thinks that these games were in San Antonio.

Eric said...

Mariano was the most important player on all those Yankee World Series wins. Yes he blew 4 (though one of them was whne he came in against the Red Sox with the bases loaded and 0 outs) in the playoffs, no closer can sport that kind of record. He was simply lights out when it mattered most.
Most people, including me, believe saves as a stat is pretty meaningless.

Hoffman was just a great closer, a position like that, demands something special. No matter how good Papi is, he's still a DH. That may keep him outof the HOF one day. At the end of the day Hoffman and Rivera are still just closers. I think Hoffman doesn't get in.

PLAYOFFS:
Hoffman 5ER allowed in 13IP,
Rivera 10ER allowed in 112 IP.

Also, it should be noted that I belive that the HOF is way too overcrowded, so my opinion onthis should be framed in that light. I don't believe a lot of good pitchers right now shouldn't be in the HOF.

My list: Maddux, Clemens, Glavine, Rivera, Johnson... Schilling and Smoltz are borderline. Guys like Tommy John, Bery Blyleven should not be in the HOF, neither should Kirby Puckett, Phil Rizzuto, or Don Mattingly.
Basically my feeling is that if you need to debate a candidate for more than a few minutes because of how long he played and how he finally reached 2,500 or 3,000 hits, probably shouldn't be in.

Though I do believe Jim Rice should be in, because he was completely dominant for 10 years

verbal97 said...

"Also, it should be noted that I belive that the HOF is way too overcrowded, so my opinion onthis should be framed in that light."

Good to know your bias Eric. I'm on the opposite side. It's a baseball museum not effing sainthood.

CMFost said...

Eric - If Hoffman does not get in then there is almost no way Rivera gets in. If someone who will retire and have the record for Saves does not get in no other closer deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

Vincent said...

I really don't get the facination with the Mcnabb story. Everyone knows McNabb is the #1. I think his "shock" is deserved. but way over played in the media. It's really a Non-issue at this point.

Matthew said...

Not to be a bomb thrower, but i have always been astounded by the fact that Manny Ramirez has never had his name mentioned in the steroid conversation. By 1998 the guy who used to be a skinny rail had gotten muich bigger and was hitting 45 homers. By 2000 his relatively short frame looked to be carrying more weight than ever, but his face was a pimply mess and he was missing time with hamstring pulls. His head and face have undergone the same transformation Bonds' did. Does Manny avoid scrutiny because he is a goofball while Barry is an ass?

CMFost said...

Smoltz is almost a lock especiall yif he get to 200 wins. You have to take in to account that he would probably be at have 60-70 more wins if he was not a dominate closer for 4 seasons.

so instead of 197 Wins he would probably be at 260-270 Wins and on his way to probably 300.

Ben Conant said...

I can't wait until my favorite baseball team clinches a playoff spot so we can see them living it up, pouring milk on each other's heads, shaking up Oranginas and spraying them all over the place.

CMFost said...

Way does Manny not get the treatment that Bonds does. Several reasons.

1. Manny has been very consitent with his Home Run totals every year. He never had the kind of spikes that Bonds did. look at Manny's totals since 1995 his first year as a full time player. 31,33,26,45,44,38,41,33,37,43,45,35

2. Manny is only 34 and should still be in his prime as a hitter. If when he gets to his 40's he is hitting 45-50 HR's then you have to wonder.

3. Bonds is a complete ass and Manny does is best to stay out of the press,.

chris said...

Alcohol liability varies by state. Some states have Dram Shop laws that make vendors more accountable for the actions of a third party.

GuyInTheCorner said...

List of active Hall of fame pitchers:
Roger Clemens
Mariano Rivera
Curt Schilling
Randy Johnson
Trevor Hoffman
Greg Maddux
John Smoltz
Pedro Martinez

List of active pitchers that will make the Hall of Fame unless something strage stops them from completing their careers:
Mike Mussina
Andy Pettite

List of players you can reasonably assume will getinto the Hall of Fame if they continue what they have done:
Roy Halladay
Francisco Rodriguez
Johan Santana

Brian in Oxford said...

Kinda like how the Yankees did it while Strawberry was on the team? Non-alcoholic stuff....

And you can't use the "most" argument to say Hoffman's better than Rivera. They'll both get in. Hoffman had a 3 year head start saving games over Mo (94 versus 97). The real testament is the old "who would you rather have saving X game?" argument, and more people will go Rivera over Hoffman....or just about anyone else, actually (maaaaybe Eck c. '90)

hershey3 said...

If they're intent on televising the MLB Draft, there's really only one choice on who should fill the "Kiper" role: Harold Reynolds. The guy knows baseball (and hugs, if the interweb rumors are to be believed), he used to broadcast the LLWS, so he could relay trivial nuggets about players before their prime, and he's interesting to watch. But I made this comment on another blog last week: Because nobody but the most hardcore fans can name a single college baseball player, will anyone watch? As a point, name two starters from the past NCAA Championship games for football and basketball.

Now do the same for college baseball.

Brian in Oxford said...

Hey....Andy Pettitte's stats seem worse than Jack Morris's. And Pettitte wasn't any more of a big game pitcher than Morris.

Eric said...

CMFost: The Saves record is meaningless. Didn't he break Lee Smith's record? Lee Smith has never been close to the HOF (I think he peaked around 45% of the vote).

John Franco is ahead of Rivera... Also not a HOFer. River is a HOFer because he's the most dominant big-game close in baseball history (which of course, really means the last 25-30 years, since the concept of a big game closer didn't exist before then).

There is a legit argument for Hoffman to be in the HOF, I don't agree with it. But there is no way Hoffman is more than a questional to probable HOFer while Mariano is automatic first year selection.

Matthew said...

my point isnt that Manny is on steroids now, just that he has never been scrutinized the way other guys have. Sosa, McGuire, Palmeiro, Bonds, and Giambi have all come under the microscope. Of them, only Rafi has tested positive. Giambi apparently gets a pass because he "apologized" for "something he couldnt talk about". Manny has always been an all time great hitter, but his development from a baby face to a pizza face to an almost Barry-sized head should at least raise some eyebrows.

Eric said...

Pettite is not a HOFer in my mind. He's never been a dominant pitcher, has he ever won a Cy Young (A prerequisite for a starter in the HOF). If you've never been the best pitcher in a league as a start, you shouldn't be in the HOF.

hershey3 said...

As for Barry, the man was a lock for the HOF at the pace he was running 10 years ago. He just wouldn't have had the numbers that he has now, if not for PEDs. He certainly would've been part of the 500 HR club and, quite possibly, the 600 HR club. But I do not believe he would've even sniffed the 700 HR club were it not for the BALCO influence.

TBender said...

If Pettitte gets in, it's because he played for the Yankees. As someone else said, he's a member of the HOVG. (Right there with Mattingly.)

No one has said that Bonds isn't the best hitter in the game, but the PEDs are the Coors Field effect at sea level. The 300' flyout is now a 350' HR.

Lee said...

Dan on Bonds - "You have to admit that it's unlikely he's using them [PEDs] now."

Based on what? The MLB testing program? Believing that Bonds is now clean because they're testing seems a bit naive. Those Austrian cross-country skiers that were caught with the doping equipment and banned from the Olympics *never* tested positive, and the Olympics testing program has been around a lot longer with more teeth in it.

There are always ways to get around the testing. Whether you're using something new that the tests don't look for (like the BALCO stuff) or you're using something that can't be tested for (HGH).

I also take issue with Dan's statement that "'Roiding or not, he's the best power hitter of all time." It's undeniably true that he's putting up the best power numbers of all time, but without the steroids Bonds is NOT the best power hitter of all time. As other posters have mentioned, he was an awesome all-around player before transforming himself into a power guy. He wouldn't be able to sniff Hank's homer numbers without the steroids.

Michael said...

a few thoughts on bonds, then I will duck in a corner and prepare for the hits because I am defending him (but mostly I am angry at all of the self righteous sports righters that think they are so above athletes and their indiscretions)...

a) Amphetamines aren't "performance enhancers" they are speed and players take them to stay awake. Maybe instead of attacking players baseball should look at its schedule a little more seriously and prevent situations where players travel until 6 in the morning only to wake up 4 or 5 hours later the nextt day for an afternoon ball game. I hardly think you can say that caffeine+ makes bonds a cheater. I know they are bad for you and addictive and can kill you but i don't remember Coffee ever making me a better athlete.

b) I know that Bonds is the player breaking the record and he is also a jack-ass but he is clearly also an unbelievable player, otherwise every player on steroids would have hit 700 homers. What's that you say not every player who has been caught with juice is an incredible home run hitter? (how can that be possible steroids are miracle drugs). In fact some of the players that have been caught aren't even good enough hitters to be in the majors. That can't be true because apparently steroids make you so good that you can hit home runs in your sleep.

I'm not defending their use but I also don't think that you should turn your back on baseball (or bonds) because of steroid usage. noone seemed to mind that the premier defensive player in the NFL was suspended for roids last season, I have never undestood why we think baseball gets hit for everything (including drunk driving) and we give football a million passes. Ahmod Caroll (jax Jags) was arrested for possesion of ecstacy last week and it didn't even make the news.
We are witnessing one of the greatest players in the history of the game break one of the greatest records in sports, enjoy what you are seeing, it doesn't come around often (until arod does it again in 8-10 years). People should put their self righteousness aside and enjoy the game of baseball no matter how tainted you think its numerous great players are (that means Roger Clemens too).

verbal97 said...

wow...that's just too bullshit-ridden to even bother derailing.

Richard K. said...

Why is it a problem to have alcohol in MLB clubhouses? It reminds me of freshmen dorm when the PL used to say that we SHOULD drink in the dorms so he could keep an eye on us (and share it with him of course).

With regard to Barry Bonds...no shit the guy is on roids. Duh! But guess what. Noone gives a damn. Know why? Because EVERY professional athlete is probobly on the roids. They most likely have been for the last 30 years and they will continue to be forever. If you could become a multimillionaire by taking a shot, you would too.

mcam09 said...

Rivera is a definite. Hoffman has never saved a big game in his life, look at all the big spots hes been in, its not even close. Right now, Mussina and Pettitte are short, Schilling too probably.

Michael said...

@ Eric - no pedro?

GuyInTheCorner said...

mcam09-

Your arguement doesn't make sense compared to... well, your arguement.

If Hoffman isn't in the HOF because he has never come up in big spots how is Schilling not in? That makes no sense.

Jen said...

todd~ Travis Hafner has earned his DUD status. Geez, he's turning into the Whiff King. Cliff Lee was awesome.

Dan, I doubt you even watched the Nets-Cavs game, but I watched the second half and it was a great game. I hate basketball and sat and watched it. Yes, I am from the Cleveland area, so I have a little interest, but it was a close game that kept you into it. There were some great steals, 3-pointers, a couple of slam dunks...good b-ball. Maybe you are "zzzzzzzzz"

CycleDan said...

There was an excellent article on Bonds that projected how many extra HRs he hit because of PEDs. I think it was on the ESPN website. The compared skinny pre-PED Barry to post Barry's numbers along with how additional muscle mass translates into bat speed and how much further a ball will travel. It was an interesting piece but of course lots of guess work. I would say that he hit 100-200 HRs because of HGH, testosterone, ampetimines and the like.

I think people are incredibly naive about drug use. I have seen kids in high school take stuff just to try and start on the team. I have seen people take diet pills so they could lose weight for their sport. I know guys who took roids and HGH just to help bulk up. ... And those were amateurs who didn't have multi-million dollar contracts on the line.

They all take drugs, MLB knows it and wants to appear they care without catching any big name starts. If they cared they would:
- test before or after games.
- randomly show up at players' houses during the offseason.
- suspend players for at least 40 games when caught the first time and for the whole season when caught the second time
- make teams forfeit games if players are caught cheating

They do nothing of the sort. There is a 100% chance Bonds is still on the juice. And you know what? I don't care if he breaks any records. In all other sports records fall all the time.

GuyInTheCorner said...

I love Schilling. I'll start with that. I think he's funny. I think he's a great pitcher. I really do.

That being said...
Why are we letting him get off for making those comments abit Bonds. He didn't say he took steroids. He said he unknowingly had his trainer use the cream and clear on him. Despite if you think that he wasn't telling the truth, those two aren't the same thing.

When was it that he admitted to cheating on his wife? Never.

His taxes? Never.

The game? Also never.

Why do we let this fly? Bonds could actually sue him for slander and defamation after those comments.

rafael said...

Ach! I'm not a total ignorant fool!

I know Bonds took stuff and that he admitted it. We all know LOTS of players did. I'm just saying that the outrage isn't over steroids, its more about him being an asshole and approaching the record held by a 'respectable' baseball player.
I don't care about the steroids. I used to, but since it seems that all the top sluggers, 'cept Griffey, took them...and he still outperformed those guys by so much...then fine. Go for the record Bonds.
Is he on something now? I don't know. And I won't assume that he is on something now. That just adds more anger. Some of ya'll need to chill. Grab a brewski.

Brian in Oxford said...

Well, is it really that much different what Schilling says, versus what all of us on here say? Big deal, he does the same thing for a living as Bonds....does that mean he's not allowed to make comments on stuff, even if some of them are ill-informed? If Schilling could be sued, then why wouldn't each and all of us who slam Barry around be?

Lee said...

People that argue steroids don't help you hit a baseball (like you are Michael, in a round about way) are right, but they're missing the point. Steroids don't improve you're hand-eye coordination, but they make you stronger (duh) and faster. So you add your extra muscle to your extra bat speed, and you hit the ball harder and longer.

Steroids won't turn average schmoes into 700 homer guys, Michael, but they could turn them into servicable bench players, which is why *all* levels of players might take them.

mcam09 said...

Guy, sorry I didn't clarify, but Schilling lacks the regular season numbers to be eligible, if he pitches a few more years, then he could. While Hoffman has the saves record, it just seems like every big spot hes been in, he has failed. Certainly, Schilling, along with Smoltz, have been the greatest big game pitchers of this era. If Schilling is on the bubble numbers wise, these performances would push him in.

danthemanwise said...

In regards to Amphetamines, doesn't anyone else find it strange that the "only" person caught was Barry Bonds? To me, that reiterates that fact that this is a witch hunt against Bonds.

Say what you want but if Cal Ripken used Amphetamines to play in every game, people would admire him, saying he is only doing this for the good of the team.

Baseball caused this mess in the first place. They needed to bring back the fans and rode Sosa and Big Mac all the way home and now want nothing to do with them.

To me, the one constant that always gets overlooked is that everyone says Bonds, Sosa, etc.. hit all these HR because they were on Steroids. It could easily be because 50% of the pitchers they faced were juiced causing the increase in HR's.

Sure steroids were illegal in the US, but it was not in baseball. Smoking marijuana is illegal in the US and in baseball yet no one gets up in arms when a player is busted for drugs like they do steroids. This is a mess and baseball and the media is to blame for doing nothing about it.

Eric said...

Michael:

Simply forgot Pedro. He's a no-brainer also.

danthemanwise said...

"Rivera is a definite. Hoffman has never saved a big game in his life, look at all the big spots hes been in, its not even close. Right now, Mussina and Pettitte are short, Schilling too probably."


I agree with Hoffman never having won a big game but the two most memorable moments of Rivera's career are the Blown Save against the D-backs in the World Series and the Choke against the Red Sox.

Comparing the two's post season career is like comparing Tom Brady's to Dan Marino. Tom has had a lot more chances to shine in the post season spot light then Marino's. If Hoffman was with the Yanks the who knows how many big moments he would have.

P.S. I firmly believe they are both HOF's.

Eric said...

Hoffmann has blown two games in his post season career though. That's a lot since he's only thrown 13 innings.

Rivera's blown 3-4 games in almost 9x the work.

The bottom line is how you perceive a reliver. What does a reliever need to do to be a HOFer. Since they are so limited, I think that they have to go so far and beyond just beingn a good to great closer. Rivera does that, no questions asked.


As for steroids. I just don't care, I just want to see Bonds hit as many times a spossible before he retires, he's the best baseball player of our generation. I couldn't care less if he took PEDs or not. That's a personal choice.

Eric said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
GuyInTheCorner said...

Brian-

I don't know about you, but I never claimed that Bonds cheated on his taxes or his wife.

How can Schilling say stuff like that? There wasn't one shred of truth in those comments.

The reason he could be sued and you cant is that no one listens to you but they do to Schilling and you say it to your wife and your TV and he says it on a national platform.

rafael said...

dantheman:

You reminded me of something when you mentioned Marino.

During the Kentucky Derby, Hank Greenberg (..that's right isn't it? the name?) was talking about a trainer who had never won the big races. Hank said that even if the trainer never won the Derby, he'd still be a great success.
"Just look at Dan Marino. You won't find anyone that takes anything away from him because he never won a SuperBowl"
I died laughing. Marino sucks.

chipp said...

Shouldn't Bonds at least get some props for continuing to play the field? It seems like a lot of the recent HR guys have been DH-ing in the AL get finish off their careers. Where would Barry's HR # be if he only had to concentrate on hitting?

ndyanksfan05 said...

My biggest post-season rivera moment was him clinching the 2000 world series by getting piazza to fly out to bernie at shea...

probably because i was there, but it was awesome.

His dominance was also relavent in his set-up role to whetland in the 96 playoffs when the game ended after six innings because those two just mopped everyone up.

GuyInTheCorner said...

The question is how long does Bonds keep playing?

Next year is obvious because he wants 3000 hits. What about after that? I have NO DOUBT that if he goes to a above average AL lineup and DHs that he could go after Sadaharu Oh's HR record of 868 and I think he would get it too.

Brian in Oxford said...

What exactly was the deal, then, where Bonds was being investigated by the IRS, and it was either his ex-wife or ex-girlfriend ratting him out about it.

(see? I don't know the whole story either...I'm like Schilling in that regard, I suppose.)

verbal97 said...

Bonds can suck my balls...he'd probably like it too because they're filled with testosterone.

Matt said...

Cavs Nets series is a big ZZZZ for you huh Dan? I wonder why you take every opportunity to bash the Cavaliers. 1st you say Cavs Wizards will go 6 games...which is ludicrous in its own right. Then you say that this series is borning? Why is it boring? Close games, LBJ, the emergence of Sasha..Z stepping up. VC JK and RJ try to takew down the king??

sorry it isnt the run and gun, no defense playing Western Conference. So the boring less watchable conference will keep winning the championship and sports writers, like yourself, can keep picking teams like Dallas, PHX, SA to win and they dont.

I always thought you were differnt that the rest of the ESPN pundits who are the 1st to file in line to critize LBJ when he does evem the smallet things wrong (passes to teammates, doesnt take big shots) but will never praise him when he playes out of his mind well.

Look at this series, the kid is growing up with each game, demanding the ball willing his teammates on. The cavs havent lost since Easter and you call they a boring team.

I wonder how long it will take you to wrote your first "this playoff exit pushes LBJ 1 step closer to leaving the cavs in ..." Its all bullshit, lazy, and unoriginal.

And also, no mention about the Indians winning 13 out of 16 games?? get with it!

danthemanwise said...

Matt,

You got to remember, Dan has some kind of hatred towards anything to do with Cleveland. Sure he "wrote" something about the Browns draft but so did everyone else.

starkweather said...

Pedro is a lock Hall of Famer and Rivera is a lock Hall of Famer. Trevor Hoffman is borderline (see: Lee Smith) and Mussina is going to get in, but it'll be like Don Sutton getting in. He isn't a first ballot guy but 240-135 and 3.64 ERA are monster numbers. He'll probably hang around the Yankees long enough to get a ring, but that criteria is way over-rated in HOF discussions for baseball.

The steroids issue in sports (not just baseball) is a joke. Nobody really cares or they would stop watching. There is no level of athletics where PEDs are not prevalent and I don't give a f***. It makes a better show. I have a bigger problem with the feeling every game I watch is fixed. Anybody else see a much bigger issue on the horizon with the sports books? Do you really believe every game is honest with the amount of money that's on the line? Sorry for the rant.

Natsfan74 said...

I haven't seen anyone else mention it, but how about Mussina saying that Clemens is, at best, a 2 or 3 starter, and not an ace. First, why would Moose say anything derogatory about a teammate, talking about his age and his inability to go deep into games and such. Second, why would the Yankees pay $28M (or, really, $21M) to a 2 or 3 pitcher. Those guys should be available for a lot less (see Gil Meche, Ted Lilly, etc.) How is this not a big deal? Will those comments upset Clemens? How about the Boss (paying a league record salary for a 2 or 3 isn't anything he ever wants to be known for).

Eric said...

starkweather:
I have a bigger problem with the feeling every game I watch is fixed. Anybody else see a much bigger issue on the horizon with the sports books? Do you really believe every game is honest with the amount of money that's on the line? Sorry for the rant.


I find it hard to believe that players would be dumb enough to fix games. They would need a LOT of money because they are risking all future earnings against fixing a game. Even a non-star in baseball makes minimum $400K. (And presumably no rookie earning the minimum would be ready to fix a game.)

So you're talking about guys earning $1 mill/yr. If they are willing to tank 1 game and they get caught, they cost themselves $1 mil minimumm, and if they are a veteran witha good chance of staying in theleague even more money. I'm not sure if it's worth it to a game fixer in the pros to outlay the amount of money it costs to turn someone.

Now college sports.. I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Jen said...

Matt~ Don't you remember after the draft, Dan was the only one who thought that the Browns weren't a "winner" on day one? He'll find something "wrong" with the Tribe anyhow, so I'd rather him just overlook their winning streaks and let them stay at the top of the AL Central.

CMFost said...

Ok Dan had said something about putting a poll up that asks if you still care about the MLB steriod scandal. I just put one up on fanIQ.



check it out and respond

Brian in Oxford said...

CM, do you know how to spell steroid? :)

kash said...

Can't mention MLB going prohibition on us in the clubhouse and not see the hypocrisy in the fact there are potentially tens of thousands of drunk fans driving home from the game. I understand, MLB wants to protect their investments in the players and then wants to make money from the fans at the game so they're consistent from a money aspect. What's next, Don Nelson won't be able to pop open a cold one after the game?

Justin said...

Quote:

What's next, Don Nelson won't be able to pop open a cold one after the game?


Actually, yes:
Type in "Don Nelson" on bloomberg.com

Irregaahhdless said...

Ah, I loved this...

YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHY I PUT MY EMAIL ADDRESS IN THE CORNER. ONLY TWO "YOU'RE WRONG!!!" EMAILS HELPING ME OUT? I'VE BEEN OFFLINE ALL MORNING BUT HAVE ACCESS TO EMAIL.

Right, Dan. Because, you know, we're supposed to do your editing for you! It's our fault. More of us should have written in to tell you that you made the same mistake twice.

B. Viddy said...

Curt Schilling needs to stop running his mouth. I dislike Bonds as much as the next guy, but Bonds has never admitted anything that Schilling accused him of. The other thing you have ot think about is this: if Bonds was on steroids then you need ot consider if the pitchers he faced were on steroids. Afterall, most every player who has tested positive for steriods so far are pitchers. IF we can't determine how many times he faced a juiced pitcher how can discount what he has done. Honestley, I wish the Bonds story would die and he would fade with it, but we are being completley once sidede here.

Eric said...

RE: Barry Bonds.

For anyone who's a little older and outraged about Barry Bonds. Are you equally outraged that Gaylord Perry is in the HOF?

After all he's an admitted cheater as well

Justin said...

Cavs Fans:

Nice story by Bomani Jones over on ESPN's Page 2.

GuyInTheCorner said...

What the heck happend?

Kurt said...

Congrats cmfost, you got 4 people to take your poll. Maybe you should practice your spelling and punctuation while you wait for people to vote. You can start here . Come back when 1000 people have taken your poll.

carlivar said...

Newsflash: if you have access to email, you're not offline.

This split-personality arguing-with-yourself stuff is great! I want this sort of writing every day.

ryan from boston,ma said...

Craig Smith making second all rookie team,Dan.That's awesome to hear,he was in my dorm while I was a Sophomore at BC.(He was a Freshman at the time.)

Geoff said...

That should be a running gimmick, like once or twice a week just randomly get a games location wrong and see how many people notice.

starkweather said...

Eric- who said the players were fixing the games? Think a little more macro. Why can't the leagues put an invisible hand into the action to (ostensibly) stir fan reactions? If it makes dollars, it makes sense, right?

Kevin said...

The only question: Who will emerge as this cottage industry's Mel Kiper?

Try Jim Callis...

chipp said...

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?! The Mariners are in a rain delay in DET. How many games can be cancelled (not yet CAN/PPD) in one season for one team? They just made up the BOS game during this road trip. C'MON!!

Bayma said...

If you've read Game of Shadows then you know that Bonds (sure, in a round about way) admitted to taking steroids. Second, he also acknowledges his mistress who ratted him out. She would travel on road trips with the team and stay in his suite. He is currently under investigation for tax problems.