Wednesday, April 11, 2007

Wednesday 04/11 A.M. Quickie:
Ultimate Matchups Edition

In honor of the 2007 NFL regular-season schedule being released today, a few other matchups that are of intrigue today:

Matsuzaka versus Ichiro
: Prediction! More people will watch this game in Japan than any single baseball game will be watched this season by Americans, including the World Series. (If ever the concept of "Live Look-In" was invented, it was for this first at-bat between them.)

Rutgers Women's Hoops vs. Don Imus: Media is so full of phonies, frauds and caricatures that it is arresting to see the kind of authenticity and sincerity and realness that the Rutgers women brought to their press conference. That was the best half-court trap execution of the year.

(It's not that I think Imus should be terminated, per se, but I mostly can't understand why anyone would listen to him – and I am even more incredulous why news-media "guests" would suckle at Imus' teat. So-called journalists who pander to him are the ones with the bigger problem. How can any self-respecting media type appear on his show now?)

PacMan Jones vs. Roger Goodell: The punishment seems pretty harsh, but Pac-Man has been such a complete ass (not to mention an embarrassment to the league), that I'm glad to see Goodell taking a stand. It's an assertion of power by an NFL Commish that is so aggressively novel. As Stephen Colbert might say, "NFL Players (and Employees): You're on Notice."

Bonus! Chris Henry vs. Roger Goodell: Henry was suspended 8 games, and the severity had to be a product of the NFL's overall frustration with the entire Bengals organization.

Kevin Durant vs. the NBA: See yesterday's "Lead Item" post for my full take on Durant in the NBA. Needless to say, I don't know what's going to be more fun -- the NBA Draft Lottery or actually seeing him play once he's on a team.

(Arron Afflalo vs. the NBA: Here's hoping he doesn't see defenders like Corey Brewer every night. I've read he's late-first at best, but 6-foot-5 shooting guards are a dime-a-dozen in the NBA. Welcome to the D-League. Here's the thing: Another year of college won't help his NBA stock. Kind of like Tyler Hansbrough. Except Afflalo wants to cash in; Hansbrough figures he might as well stay and continue racking up the college accolades before NBA oblivion.)

Cleveland fans vs. Milwaukee fans: Given that 19,000 Milwaukee fans showed up for an Indians-Angels game (mid-week!), I'm willing to cede the "MLB's Best Fans" Award (for the week, the month and possibly the season) to Milwaukee. That was an outstanding effort.

Hank Aaron vs. Barry Bonds: Aaron won't be attending when Bonds breaks his record. He seems to be sick of all the hype, but I think he's doing a disservice to baseball by not being there.

Josh Hamilton vs. Career Rehab: He's my MLB Stud of the day, for smacking a home run for his first-ever MLB hit.

Brendan Donnelly vs. Jose Guillen: Nice to see that old feuds stay warm over multiple seasons.

NBA Regular Season Ending vs. Integrity: I always get in trouble for suggesting that teams "tank" for various reasons (draft order, playoff seeding, avoiding injuries), and yet, where's the outrage that the Pistons (among others) are basically going to phone it in (it's being called an "exhibition-season rotation") until the playoffs. How is that not the same as tanking games, just without using the word "tank." There IS no outrage: Because tanking is perfectly acceptable under the right circumstances.

Billy Gillispie vs. Billy Donovan: Give Gillispie the edge for recruiting in the High School Class of 2009. He got his first commitment from a Top 20-ranked 16-year-old soph PG from... Texas. Naturally.

Michael Irvin vs. Shawn Vandergrift: After being sued by the disabled contractor, Irvin has counter-sued. Of COURSE he has. (Vandergrift: a Dickensian name for a contractor if ever there was one, agreed?)

The Webbys vs. Sports Bloggers: No offense to any of the Webby nominees in the "Best Sports Site" category, but WTF?! No "DanShanoff.com," I can certainly understand. But no Deadspin? No Kissing Suzy Kolber? No Fanhouse? No Dugout? (I could go on. I'll refrain.) Well, at least Colin Cowherd's Webcast wasn't on the list. Success.

Kissing Suzy Kolber vs. the Ladies...: This one has already been won. There's nothing like a good guest-post, so be sure to stop by KSK today for a taste of the Ladies... Crew, running their site today, off of an NCAA Tournament bracket-picking bet.

Finally: NFL Regular-Season Schedule revealed today at 1 p.m. Expect to see a lot of mainstream and blog analysis of the best, worst, easiest, hardest, coolest, lamest, etc. -- and that's by TEAM.

-- D.S.

129 comments:

Jason said...

i think that aaron's attendance for the setting of the home run record would be giving tacit approval to the steroid era and everthing negative the game has become. i'm glad aaron's not gonna show.

besides, i sincerely doubt that bonds will have the class to show up when pujols or a-rod breaks his record.

Matt T said...

I think there's a difference between tanking and resting your players if you've clinched playoffs/home court.

They are not purposefully trying to lose, they are furthering their chances to win a championship that season, which is the ultimate goal.
Fans are okay with players resting if it will help them win the championship

CMFost said...

I have to say that listening to Mike and Mike this morning I was sturck by the absolute hyprocrisy of ESPN. I knew it was bad but not this bad. They are hammering Don Imus to the point where Stu Scott was on and said he should be fired. The thing that gets me is how they are totally glossing over what there co-worker did and personally I think what Cowherd did was worst. Yes, Imus' comment was wrong but what Colin did could of cost someone money and there business and that is worse.

CMFost said...

The thing I am most excited about is watching to of the best young pitchers in the game go at each other this evening. Matsuzaka vs Hernandez, that should be a great pitchers dual.

Kevin said...

The Brewers even held a Sausage Race at Miller Park for the Indians. True to prediction, the 19,000+ crowd were mostly pro-Indians. All the game needed was Bob Uecker...

Mikepcfl said...

Aaron is doing the right thing by not showing up for Bonds' record. He is also being classy by not openly trashing Bonds. He couldnt handle it any better.

Speaking of class...at least Cal Ripken dissed Imus by backing out of his show this week.

And I agree with cmfost about ESPN's hypocracy. How many racially insensitive and embaressing comments/situations came from Michael Irvin before he was let go by ESPN?

CMFost said...

Here is a prediction regarding Pacman Jones - He will never play another game in the NFL. If what has been reported to have happened in Vegas is true he will be in jail for a long time by the time his suspension is up.

nerditry said...

I don't see why Aaron should have to show or would at this point. Acting like there hasn't been any controversy or that Bonds is well-liked will just whitewash the steroid issue even further.

Good for Hank and the person at fault here is Selig, it's his job to be the Commish.

Baker said...

No way Aaron should show up when Bonds breaks the record. Henry Aaron has been nothing but a credit to baseball ever since he's been out of the game. Why should he be compelled to support anyone whom he deems is not playing on a level playing field with his accomplishments? Seems to me baseball is doing a disservice to him by letting players like Bonds compete unimpeded with who knows what flowing through their veins.

jhawkjjm said...

For anyone who's interested, Jason Whitlock has a great (imo) article about this whole Imus and Rutgers situation. Warning: social commentary.

http://www.kansascity.com/182/story/66339.html

Luke Bell said...

$10 for any ticket didn't hurt the attendance either. I think you would get better attendance anywhere at that price. Not to discredit my fellow Milwaukee fans, but between the novelty and the ticket price, of course they will get a good turnout.

I hope that is something that catches on. The Brewers would sell out all the time at that price.

Patriots64 said...

Great article: Can Mike Lupica be taken off TV, that guy is the most annoying person!!!

mattie said...

Rutgers Women's Hoops vs. Don Imus

I agree, they acquitted themselves well. And it was good to see the focus get back on the people he actually insulted, instead of on Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and any other hucksters that self-importantly claim to speak for me and every black person in the country every time an incident like this gives them a chance to be in the spotlight. At any rate, Imus needs to worry about the Rutgers women before going on Al Sharpton's show. I don't think he needs to be fired (though if his sponsors are pulling out of the show, that will be inevitable), but he needs to square things with the team, and get longer than your standard vacation (to me, a 2 week suspension that still gives him a week on the air first isn't really any kind of punishment).


PacMan Jones vs. Roger Goodell
Chris Henry vs. Roger Goodell

Yay for the Commish for actually having a spine. Talk about a bold first step in the right direction!


Hank Aaron vs. Barry Bonds

He's doing baseball a disservice? Huh? By not playing along with the whole Barry Bonds sham? By not taking a little heat off the situation for them by pretending that he feels Bonds' accomplishment is legit and worth celebrating? Not celebrating Bonds is no disservice to baseball, and it's not Aaron's responsibility to help ease the mess Bonds and MLB have helped create surrounding this record in particular and the use of steriods in general. He doesn't owe them that (and frankly, to my mind, doesn't owe Bonds a damn thing at all).


NBA Regular Season Ending vs. Integrity

I'm pro tanking for draft position anyway, but I agree with Matt that there's a difference between trying to lose a game and resting your starters. If the Pistons win any of the last few games, that's fine...the tanking teams have really got to try to lose because just pulling your best players or whatever does no good for your draft position if you wind up winning the games. The Pistons are *trying* to lose, they just care more about resting their starters to win in the playoffs than they care about winning out during the end of the regular season. The Oden sweepstakes teams are *trying* to lose on purpose.

Patriots64 said...

Two advertisers have pulled their sponsorship of Don Imus' radio show to protest his racially charged comments about the Rutgers women's basketball team. The office-supply chain Staples and Bigelow Tea Company said Tuesday they were ending their relationship with Imus.

CMFost said...

If you watch the Celtics play you can tell they are not trying to tank. They are currently having issue when it comes to injuries and only playing 8 inexperienced players. they showed a stat last night during the game that the 4 injured celtics average 78 points a game the 8 healthy player average 40

mcam09 said...

Mattie, the reason teh suspension did not take place immediately was because of his annual radiothon. I am a big WFAN listener, never of Imus though. Before this, I did not really think many people still listened to him. He made a horrible mistake, but he should not get fired.

CycleDan said...

Tanking games

I remember a few years back when Stern as the NBA commissioner didn't think it was good for the integrity of the game and fans who paid to see an NBA team only get to watch 2nd stringers play in the last couple games of the season.

Well I equate it to a race. If you go all out at the beginning, everyone will come by you at the end. I would even argue that if I buy a ticket to see the last home game, I know it may be anywhere from meaningless to a pivotal game. You take that chance. As a fan of a team, you don't want them to blow a first round series because their players were too tired from playing in a meaningless game.

Andy said...

mcam, the problem with only a suspension is that Imus has said stuff before that has crossed the line. This is a pattern for him and this latest incident is kind of like a tipping point. Suspensions won't teach him anything, especially when it's paid. It's like saying "here's two weeks paid vacation."

I personally love what Aaron is doing. Bonds has cheated his way to the record and by not showing up, Aaron is essentially saying that he does not accept Bonds' "record." I couldn't be more pleased.

As for the Indians in Milwaukie deal, I'm still pretty bitter, and let's face it: 19,000 tickets at $10 each is only $190,000. That won't cover more than 3 players' salaries. The Indians got screwed.

verbal97 said...

I was going to come on here to disagree about Dan's assessment of Aaron doing a disservice to the game but everybody else has already taken what I was going to say.

I'm so sick of this Imus thing. I can't believe people are still talking about this. He made a dumb comment (that was more sexist than racist mind you) to get a cheap laugh at the expense of people who didn't deserve it. Was it hurtful and ill-conceived? Of course! But a two week suspension is actually too harsh and the only reason he got it was because of the uproar, not because of the actual comment. He should ONLY apologize IN PERSON AND NOT ON THE AIR to the Rutgers' women. He doesn't owe Al Sharpton or anybody else anything. He's a shockjock who has been dispensing this drivel for 3 decades. It's not a surprising development that he went over the line, but it's also a lot less inciteful than the things Howard Stern got away with (before boob-gate).

CycleDan said...

On the Hank Aaron thing, he is all class. Period. No matter how many home runs Bonds hits, Aaron will always be a classier individual who seems happy and at peace with himself.

nati said...

I'm confused as to what the criteria are for the Webbys. I mean what are they exactly? There's an MLS site on there. ESPN.com isn't there. I just don't get it.

As far as Pacman/Henry goes... Let me say first that these suspensions are well deserved.
My problem is that they make sense under the new policy but all the "crimes" occurred under the old policy. That's basically ex post facto.

My understanding is that because Pacman didn't inform the Titans of 1 of his arrests that pretty much leaves the league open to punish him with whatever they feel like because there is no set punishment for breaking that rule.

But Henry didn't do anything except get arrested 4 times. Sure that's really bad, but it didn't break an existing rule.

That said, an 8 game suspension is like 2 games per arrest. If I was an NFL player, sure I'd be pissed about everyone thinking I'm a thug because of these guys, but I'd also be a little freaked that the NFL didn't follow its own rules and suspended a guy 2 games for an arrest when we know that that would make exactly twice that they've done that. That's sounds really selective to me.

Jingoist said...

Couple quick side takes...

I heard Aaron on the radio early in the week saying the reason he was not attending is because he was tired of the attention back when the spotlight was on him and his chase and he does not want any part of that again... come on Hank, I respect your decision not to attend, but at least call a spade a spade and call it like you see it.

The Celtics SHOULD tank the end of the season. Heck, Doc Rivers as coach is basically tanking anyway.

@kevin
How cool would it have been for Uek to do the Indians game? If he had broadcast, I would have paid to hear him say, "Juuuust a bit outside" when Sabathia pitched. Instant movie turns reality moment that was missed.

Matt T said...

I don't think PacMan has actually gotten arrested at all.

He's been spoken to by the police numerous times but never charged.

CycleDan said...

Funny how Imus went from irrelevant to top of the headlines. I just think people are way too sensitive these days. I am not an Imus fan. I don't think I have ever listened to him for more than 30 seconds straight. What all these people are doing is giving him headlines. I bet they just increased his ratings and net worth with all this controversy. He loves it since there is no such thing as bad publicity in show biz.

However making fun of any woman's hair is tantamount to the greatest insult you can hurl. If you call a black girl nappy headed you are putting your safety in peril.

rafael said...

I think it borders on pettiness if neither the Commissioner nor Aaron show up to see Bonds break the record.

I hope Hamilton can get regular at bats with the Reds.

Btw, CBS.Sportsline is great when following scores. I just discovered this...since I can't watch most of my teams, I have to follow along on scoreboard. ESPN's is slow.

Patriots64 said...

ARod- 60 homers this years looks probable!

Patriots64 said...

Pacman will be in court soon:
On March 26, 2007 the Las Vegas Police recommended to the city's district attorney that Jones be charged with one count of felony coercion and also a misdemeanor count of battery and a misdemeanor count of threat to life.

verbal97 said...

Calm down about ARod hitting 60 HRs. I remember when JT Snow first came in the majors, he hit like 6-7 HRs in the first couple weeks and everybody was saying he was the next Lou Gehrig. Even worse was when Kevin Maas filled in for an injured Don Mattingly, he hit the fastest 10 HRs ever by a rookie and ended up with 21 HR in 79 games and people thought he was going to be a huge star...but he only would hit 44 more HRs over 5 more MLB seasons.

Matt said...

I can understand the outrage of the Rutgers team, but they definitely laid it on a little thick yesterday.

This is an actual quote from the coach C. Vivien Stringer:

I don't know how anyone could have heard this and not been personally hurt and offended. When there is not equality for all or when there's been denied equality for one, there's been denied equality for all.

I'm sorry, are we talking about your basketball team getting called "nappy-headed hos" by some senile racist moron or the freakin' Little Rock 9?

Are we really willing to give Don Imus that clout over our culture that he can personally offend everyone in the country? I wasn't personally offended and it's not because I'm not a woman or African-American. I wasn't personally offended because I couldn't care less what Don Imus has to say about anything. He could dedicate an entire hour of his show to personally insulting me, my ethnicity and everything I care about and I wouldn't be offended.

Patriots64 said...

So you think Arod(2005 AL MVP) is the next Kevin Maas or Chris Shelton?? He will hit at least 50 this season if not 60+ just to prove the doubters like you wrong!

Critical Mass said...

Milwaukee fans showing up to a Cleveland/Seattle game is all well and good, but now I'm worried Selig takes this Grand Idea to the next level. "If all these Brewers fans came out to watch out of market teams, surely the rest of the country will too!" I can see it now - Royals/Angels in Atlanta, Reds/Dodgers in Tampa. And just think, that way they can black out MORE games on MLB.tv! Everybody wins! Griffey wanting to wear 42, interleague play... would you put it past MLB to take this nice, small idea and keep riding it 'round the track til it collapses?

CMFost said...

too the person who said Pacman has never been arrested. Where have you been???


Legal troubles

As of March 2007, Jones has been arrested five times and questioned by police ten times since he was drafted by the Titans in 2005. Many NFL commentators are quick to point out that Jones has more arrests than interceptions since being in the NFL.[2]

[edit] 2005

On July 13, 2005 Jones was arrested on charges of assault and felony vandalism stemming from a nightclub altercation.

On September 5, 2005 Jones was a guest at the annual Nashville Sports Council Kickoff Luncheon. After a loud verbal tantrum when he was told to wait in line for his vehicle later that evening, Jones was counseled by the police. He also refused to pay for any valet services used that evening.

In October 2005, in a petition filed by the State of West Virginia, it was alleged that Jones had not made regular and sufficient contact with his probation officer and that he did not report his July arrest in Nashville in a timely fashion. The court ordered the probation extended for a period of 90 days, although the state requested it to be extended one year.

[edit] 2006

On August 25, 2006, Jones was arrested in Murfreesboro, Tennessee for disorderly conduct and public intoxication after claiming that a woman stole his wallet. She claimed that she did not steal anything and Jones spat on her. Police officers said they ordered Jones to leave several times, but he refused, continuing to shout profanities at the woman. A judge granted him six months probation on the conditions that he stays out of further trouble and away from the nightclub.[3]

On October 26, 2006. Jones was cited for misdemeanor assault for allegedly spitting in the face of a female student from Tennessee State University during a private party at Club Mystic, a Nashville nightclub. He was suspended by the Titans for one game and was scheduled to be booked on the charge on November 17, 2006.

Also, on November 12, 2006. Jones was arrested for sucker-punching Latino fans after the Tennessee Titans game in Oakland.

[edit] 2007

During the 2007 NBA All-Star Game weekend in Las Vegas (Feb. 16-18, 2007), Jones is alleged to have been involved in an altercation with an exotic dancer at a local strip club. According to the club's co-owner, Jones approached the stage with a garbage bag filled with approximately $81,000[4] in one-dollar bills. Jones proceeded to throw the money into the air over the exotic dancers for a dramatic effect, an act known as "making it rain" or performing a "rain dance". Becoming enraged when one of the dancers began taking the money without his permission, Jones grabbed her by her hair and slammed her head on the stage. A security guard intervened and scuffled with members of Jones' entourage of half a dozen people, during which time Jones allegedly bit the guard on the lower leg. Jones then allegedly threatened the guard's life.[5] After the patrons of the club exited, the club owner says a person in Jones' entourage returned with a gun and fired into a crowd, hitting three people, including the security guard involved in the earlier skirmish. Although the guard was shot twice, one of the people hit, former professional wrestler Tommy Urbanski, was paralyzed from the waist down.[6] Jones maintains that he did not know the shooter, although the club's owner insists that Jones did.[7] On March 26, 2007 the Las Vegas Police recommended to the city's district attorney that Jones be charged with one count of felony coercion and also a misdemeanor count of battery and a misdemeanor count of threat to life. [8].

More trouble followed Jones after the altercation, when drug dealer Darryl Moore reported to the police after being busted during a deal about his phone conversations with Jones. "We gotta slow down, man. We gotta get him focused on football, man. He's focused on too much other shit," Moore is alleged to have said. Wiretapped phone conversations between Moore and his friends revealed Moore talking about how Jones bet on college games to earn quick money. "You know, I was talkin' to him the other day about smokin', and he was like 'man, if I didn't smoke I couldn't take all the stress that I'm dealing with right now,'" Moore said.[9]

Jones also is set to appear in a Fayetteville, Georgia court in 2007 for his February 2006 incident on subpoenas for felony and misdemeanor obstruction of justice charges for an incident outside a home. The charges of marijuana in the same state were dismissed.[10] Jones has not been connected to the Moore drug arrests or convicted for the Vegas stripper incident. But Titans management have said they will talk to Jones about his future with the Titans, and that there is always a possibility of letting him go. The NFL has issued an investigation into the situation, which is looking into setting up stricter penalties for off-field conduct.[11]

Jones met with NFL commissioner Roger Goodell on April 3rd to discuss his future and the future of fellow-former West Virginia Mountaineer and Cincinnati Bengals' receiver Chris Henry. On April 10, 2007 the NFL announced that Jones would be suspended for the entire 2007 season, a suspension not assessed a player in 44 years since Paul Hornung and Alex Karras were each suspended for one season for gambling. This suspension also stated that Jones will not receive pay during this suspension and that it is subject to additional review after the tenth regular season game, pending disposition of pending charges. In anticipation, Nick Harper was signed as an unrestricted free agent. What effect the suspension will have on the salary cap is not yet known, although the Titans could seek repayment of the approximately $1.9 million in signing bonus money due Jones in 2007. The suspension carries no guarantee of reinstatement after it has been completed.[12]

Todd said...

So baseball studs and duds from yesterday:

Studs:
Jeff Francouer
Josh Hamilton/Alex Gordon
Josh Beckett
Tom Gorzelanny
Indians fans who trekked to Milwaukee

Duds:
Jeff Weaver
Jorge Julio
Adam LaRoche
Brendan Donnelly/Jose Guillen
The Washington Nationals

Special Dud:
ESPN Fantasy Baseball, who after numerous technical difficulties, has had to start everyone over from their opening day rosters. Boo ESPN!!! Boo!!!

Natsfan74 said...

Aaron is taking the right approach and is doing a service to his record and his legacy to the game, rather than furthering the legacy of a "suspected" cheater.

Jason Whitlock's article today was exactly right. Vivian Stringer's 30 minute speach was ridiculous, borderline laughable.

Don't hate me for saying this -- but look at the pictures from the press conference. Every player (minus 1) wore her hair in exactly the same style. Contrast that with their individual pictures on the team website. Doesn't it seem a bit like admitting defeat when none of the players are allowed to display their own style for their press conference rebutting the personal attacks?

mattie said...

mcam09, thanks, I wasn't sure what the reason was for the suspension delay.

verbal97 said...

I of course don't think ARod is equatable to Kevin Maas, I just was pointing out that people can be a bit overzealous when someone is doing well at an early stage of a season or a career. And I'm not a doubter of ARod's ability. He certainly has the potential to put up a season of 60+ and has put up seasons of 50+ in the past, but "let's not suck each other's dicks quite yet".

CMFost said...

Here is a question: Does it matter how many home runs A-Rod hits if he does not lead his team to a win in the World Series?

verbal97 said...

exactly cmfost, exactly.

Patriots64 said...

ARod will finish with 800+ homeruns when his career is over and will be regarded as the best player to ever play the game!!
I am not a Yankees fan but appreciate talent and enjoy watching great players in all sports!! There were a lot of Gretzky haters as well but I was never one of them!

CMFost said...

Ok, So Dan Marino holds all these passing records but never won a championship and that is one of the main reasons people do not consider him the best to ever play. I think if A-Rod does break these records but never wins a world series his career will go down the same way.

CMFost said...

Patriots64 at least Gretzky lead his teams to Championships.

Patriots64 said...

Peyton has broken most of those records and will go down as the best QB ever now I would say!!

Ferocious Bluebird said...

I am a firm beleiver that A-Rod tanked at the end of last season just to show the world what a bunch of assholes Yankees fans are (as if we did not already know). He wanted to give them nothing. And honestly, he and Giambi are the only Yankees I can stand. Even though I hate the Yankees, I hope they win it this year so that people can go back to remembering why they hate them so much. And maybe A-Rod can leave and tell the Yankees fans to stick it. Would be nice to see him hitting ahead of Sheffield on the Tigers next summer. :)

Patriots64 said...

ARod still has 10 years left so don't write him off yet! Peyton was in the same boat a year ago!

verbal97 said...

There's no doubt that ARod is a unique talent, but he's stuck in Peyton Manning pre-2007 zone...one of the greatest, but not a champion. And fairly or unfairly, there will always be that "but he never won" tag placed on him until he wins a WS.

And I think highly of Gretzky, but in my opinion he isn't as good as Lemieux having watched both of them play quite a bit.

CMFost said...

Actually Patriots64 Peyton has not broken most of Marino's records. He may before his career is over beat some of Marino's records but he has not broken them yet except for Single Season TD passes.

CMFost said...

not to start a different debate but if I was to rank the top 3 NHL players of all time it would go:

1. Bobby Orr
2. Gretzky
3. Mario

Todd said...

A-Rod would never go down as the greatest player ever, Ruth has that one covered for a long time...

Could he hit 60 HRs this year? Sure. Will he? The odds are against it, just being that it's such a difficult thing to do.

But fair or not, A-Rod has the label that he's not clutch, and nothing he does in April or May can do anything to remove that.

Postseason career #s:
A-Rod: .280/6/16 (35 games)
Jeter: .314/17/48 (119 games)

CMFost said...

just for a comparison to a player that has played the same amount of games.

Postseason career #s:
A-Rod: .280/6/16 (35 games) - 0 Rings
Ortiz - .301/8/32 (38 games) - 1 Ring

verbal97 said...

cmfost:

I would have the same 3 NHL players in the exact opposite order.

Jingoist said...

OK, I'm a Red Sox fan and Yankee hater, but let's just pretend for a second here...

You're GM of any MLB team other than the Yankees for 1 day.

Brian Cashman calls you that day, and after the small talk, offers you A-Rod for your Top Pitching prospect, a Major League ready arm, and an above average starting infielder on your roster to offset losing A-Rod's spot at 3B.

Every GM on the planet would make that deal, including you and I on that 1 day on the job.

The guy may not be well-liked, but you cannot reproduce his numbers in your lineup year in and year out, period.

Patriots64 said...

When you consider rankings are you talking talent or career??

Career: Gretzky with all the records is #1 by a country mile cause Orr's career was only 10 seasons and 99's was 20. Career would be Gretz, Howe, Messier!!

Talent wise it would be Orr, Mario, Gretz!!

Natsfan74 said...

So Todd, what you are saying is that given the same number of games, ARod would have more home runs and many more RBIs than DJ in the post season?

Track that 6/19 number to when -- it's almost all before he became a Yankee, and all of it before game 4 of 2004.

But, A-Rod is going to finish his career as one of the top 5 of all time. He's a 40-40 club member, will hit 800 home runs, has a couple MVP awards and gold gloves, and should get at least some credit for moving to 3rd base in deference to the home grown but less talented SS Jeter. (all said, I still hate him).

In what would be the perfect way to end any baseball season, A-Rod would lead the Yankees to a WS win, then would opt out of his contract and tell the Yankees fans to shove it. Won't happen (either part), but it would make me an A-Rod fan for life if it did.

For the record, A-Rod is 1-2 this year in bases loaded, 2 outs, 8th inning or later, game on the line situations. That's 1 more than I would have bet.

Jingoist said...

@verbal97 and cmfrost:

1. Orr - Defined a position AND changed the way you played against his team night in and night out.
2. Lemieux - best combo of size and skill EVER.
3. Gretzky - The best player on the best team full of All-Stars (Messier, Coffey, Anderson, Tikannen, Lowe, Fuhr, etc.) and the sickest on-ice vision of all-time.

CMFost said...

The only reason I rank Orr first and no it not because I am a boston fan it is due to the fact the he revolutionize the position of Defensemen in the NHL. Before Orr they were all defense first he changed that and if his career was not cut short by Knee Injuries he would of set some scoring records for a defenseman that would never be touched. As a defenseman he average 1.4 pts per game for his career. how is this for a season:

1970-71 - 37 Goals 102 Assists(which was an NHL record until broken by Gretzky and Mario) 139 Points and a +/- of +124

Patriots64 said...

Qb's Top 5 as of 2007 - Montana, Peyton, John Elway, Marino, Brady


Top 5 Baseball players - Ruth, Aaron, Mays, Bonds, ARod

rafael said...

Ortiz and Arod comparisons are weak. Ortiz can't even play in the field.

Anyways, yes, it does matter if A-Rod hits homeruns in the regular season. He's on my fantasy team.

Todd said...

Wasn't necessarily trying to imply anything by including A-Rod's vs. Jeter's #s in the postseason, just throwing it out there.

I think when all is said and done that A-Rod will go down as one of the best 5-10 baseball players in history. But I doubt he'll even be part of the conversation for greatest of all time unless he wins at least 2 World Series, and gets to 800 HRs. Both of which are attainable, but still, people will point out that he was part of an amazing hitters' era. But as of now, his accomplishments are dwarfed by Bonds, who has played in the same era. (I know... I know...)

Todd said...

No way you can leave Cobb off 5 best players of all time.

1. Ruth
2. Bonds
3. Cobb
4. Mays
5. Josh Gibson

Obviously the Gibson nod is controversial, but I really don't think the top 3 are. Aaron I left out since while he was undoubtedly a great player and amazingly consistent, I think the other players I've put ahead of him dominated their positions and eras. A-Rod's career has the potential to be on this list, but he's not there YET.

verbal97 said...

I'm biased, and I make no apologies for it.

1) Lemieux - made everyone around him better, Dan Quinn 100 pts and Rob Brown 40 goals as examples.
2) Greztky - may have had a lot of talent around him and was eclipsed by Lemieux (season by season) too easily, but you can't argue with the numbers.
3) Orr - for reasons mentioned earlier. that season cmfost mentioned is simply unattainable for any other defenseman.

for the record, currently...

Baseball hitters
1)Ruth
2)Mays
3)Williams
4)Cobb
5)Aaron

QBs
1)Montana
2)Tarkenton
3)Marino
4)Elway
5)Manning

Andy said...

Patriots64, you are way off on that list of top QB's ever. Brady isn't anywhere near the top of that list. Unitas was way better. In fact, I'd even say Steve Young was better. Although that would be biased being as I'm a Niners fan. You putting Brady on that list is bias. Unitas was better.

Patriots64 said...

Everyone says Championships in NFL are a key factor so Brady with 3 and 4 coming soon is in my top 5!!:) Bradshaw would be 6th, Young maybe 10th!!

Patriots64 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Todd said...

I'm a firm believer that in these lists you can't make assumptions about people's future. It's possible that A-Rod or Brady could suffer a career debilitating injury at any point, and effectively knock them out of the conversation.

Though in all fairness, I think there has to be some way to balance in reasonably assumed stats for baseball players who served overseas.

CMFost said...

Todd I somewhat agree with you. You can not judge a player by only part of the career you have to wait to the whole picture is put together. What if A-rod has happen to him what happen to Jim Rice and all of the sudden he loses the ability to hit. Will he still go down as one of the best ever.

Patriots64 said...

Arod is one of the best ever now even if retires tomorrow! Same with Mr. Brady!

Brian in Oxford said...

Hey, Ted Williams' batting average is 45 points higher than Barry Bonds. If he hadn't fought 5 years in the wars (oh, by the way, let's see Barry Bonds or any modern-era player try to equal THAT accomplishment in the prime of their career), he'd have had 200 more homers, too. Not bad for a guy who played in a park with a cavern to right field to have to try to jack balls out of.

verbal97 said...

ARod's career stats now don't even come close to being one of the best 5 or even 10 of all time. He has the potential, but it's still just potential right now.

Brady you can argue because of the 3 rings and what he did en route to getting those rings. One thing that I find incredibly ironic is that Brady and Jeter are very, very similar. They're both pretty boys that have dated famous people. They both are excellent when it matters most and proven winners from day 1 of their careers. And neither puts up amazing MVP-like stats during the regular season. Even how they speak publicly (style-wise) is similar.

Patriots64 said...

Since 1996 (his first full season) through 2006 he leads the major leagues in home runs (HR), runs scored, runs batted in (RBI), total bases and extra-base hits. Of all players in baseball history at age 30, he is first all-time in both HR and runs scored, 2nd in total bases and extra base hits, 3rd in RBI, and 4th in hits. In his career to that point, Rodriguez had more HR, more RBI, more runs scored, and more base hits than all-time leaders Hank Aaron (HR and RBI), Rickey Henderson (runs scored), and Pete Rose (hits) did prior to their 30th birthdays.

Todd said...

The difference in my mind between Ted Williams and Bonds is that Bonds (for the first decade+ of his career) played a better OF than Williams, and has a 500 steal lead over Ted. A 500 steal lead more than makes up for the .avg disparity. Bonds' peak years are also 'Ruthian' in terms of their dominance (look at his OPS from 2001-2004).

What's difficult about Ted is that he arguably lost his prime years to the war, since he had his best .avg season in '41.

If A-Rod got a career ending injury today he'd be a Hall of Famer, but I don't think he'd even eclipse Honus Wagner as the best SS of all time.

Patriots64 said...

And for all the Arod Haters out there if he wins 1 World Series don't be saying he needs to win 4 or 5 like Jeter!! Bonds hasn't won any either!!

Willie Mays is top 3 and only won 1!
2 MVP Awards (1954 and 1965)
Led NL in home runs 4 times
Led NL in triples 3 times
Led NL in stolen bases 4 consecutive years (1956-1959)
12 consecutive Gold Gloves (1957-1968)
Played for one World Series champion (1954)

verbal97 said...

@pats64:

For using phrases like "to that point of his career" and "before 30", you make my point for me...thanks!

@todd:

Bonds' Ruthian years were medicinally aided, no doubt about it. If it's proven that it's not the case, I'll circle Fenway Park in a pink thong with a red sox logo on it. Plus, I don't understand why people place so much emphasis on SB. Is it because of fantasy baseball? I mean, we're not going to put Vince Coleman in the HOF or anything, right? In the end, I will NEVER put Bonds in a top 5, top 10 or top anything unless it's a cheaters' or assholes' list.

Todd said...

Mays was also probably one of the 2 best defensive CFs of all time (along with Tris Speaker). CF is also the most demanding defensive position (I'll accept anyone's argument that catcher is more demanding).

And if someone out there says that Jeter is a better baseball player career-wise than A-Rod, they're either 8, related to Jeter, or dumb.

Look, the basic point I'm trying to make (and it seems like most people agree), is that A-Rod has the potential to be one of the best ever, but there's a big difference between the potential and being there now. For now, he's not one of the best 5 players of all time. Right?

Patriots64 said...

ARod is top 5 in my books!! Brady top 5 as well!!

Jeter is #28!! David Ortiz is #199!

verbal97 said...

pats64,

you don't seriously have a career best list of 200 or more players?!?! Although I wouldn't doubt it if you or anybody else does. Anyway, I (a Yankee fan) would not have Jeter in the top 50 or even 100 best ever.

todd,

I'd say C is more difficult than CF. I'd rank them C, CF, SS, P, 2B, 3B, LF/RF (depending on stadium), 1B.

Patriots64 said...

I had Jeter at #79 but I thought Yankee fans would freak out!! It was a joke lol!

Lloyd Moseby, George Bell and Jesse Barfied are the best OF ever!!

Dave said...

These are some great lists. Glad to see them and glad to be talking a little football too (god, I miss football.

Just thought it was interesting (wanted to point out) that no one had Favre on their all-time qb list. I agree with leaving him out of the top five, but just thought it was interesting considering the heated discussions that were had on this blog during mid to late football season last year when Favre was "playing his last games."

Glad to know there are plenty of other sane people that don't pray at the alter of Favre or buy into the whole "gunslinger/media darling" garbage.

Patriots64 said...

Interesting:
Clyde Leroy "Sukey" Sukeforth
Born in Washington, Maine, Sukeforth was the only other person in the room when Brooklyn Dodgers president Branch Rickey told Robinson of his plans to sign him to a contract to play in Montreal in 1946.

Sukeforth managed the Dodgers for two games in 1947, replacing Leo Durocher, who was suspended by the league. In the process, he managed Jackie Robinson's first major-league game. In 1951, when Dodger manager Chuck Dressen needed a reliever to face the San Francisco Giants' Bobby Thomson in the ninth inning of the decisive third game of the National League pennant playoff, Sukeforth passed over Carl Erskine and sent in Ralph Branca, who gave up Thomson's "shot heard 'round the world". In 1952 Sukeforth transferred to the Pirates, where he scouted and signed Roberto Clemente.

Todd said...

@Verbal, Interesting actually how many of the all-time greats in baseball would make the all-asshole team as well. Bonds and Cobb would definitely be on there, Rose, maybe Ruth. Be a pretty formidable lineup.

Also, not that anyone cares, but for my Senior Year I wrote a 40-page term paper trying to assess how Josh Gibson would've fared in the majors. Basically factoring in what I considered "credible" evidence at the time, and factoring in ballparks, level of competition, etc., I think I concluded that Gibson would've hit somewhere in the neighborhood of 570-590 HRs, and easily would've been considered the best catcher of all-time.

Todd said...

Wow, this is awesome. Coming from Ty Lawson on his decision to come back to UNC next year:

Lawson's announcement was notable for its comic timing -- it came during his acceptance speech after he was honored for leading the team in assists.

"After thinking about things, talking to my parents, I think it would be best if I took my skills to the NBA. I'm sorry," Lawson said.

Dead silence.

"I'm just playing -- I'll be back next year," Lawson quipped, drawing cheers from the crowd of about 1,000.

Will (Minny via AZ) said...

Ok, I seriously hate this...East Coast bias is killing my internet sporting. I can't get on here before there are 200 posts and I can't chat on ESPN SportsNation (well anything worth chatting anyways) since I moved to Arizona. It's even worse that this brilliant state has decided to not use day light savings and just switch time zones...seriously. So now I'm on Pacific time and the only real benefit for this is that baseball starts at 5pm...what the hell am I supposed to do from 7:30 on?

Anyways, it was great/brilliant to sell the tickets for this Indians series at Miller as all general admission...$10 to sit anywhere in the park! Awesome. Wish someone got displaced to play in Phoenix...might be able to afford going...$10 a beer WTF.

verbal97 said...

@todd,

True Cobb is an all-time prick, but I didn't say that the lists were mutually exclusive. Bonds would ONLY go on an assholes' (or cheaters') list and Cobb could go on both.

CycleDan said...

There was a list of the top 50 players of all time in MLB some years back. The three active players who made the list: Clemens, McGuire and Griffey Jr. I don't think we would put the last two on that list anymore.

It is hard to judge the place of active players in history.

rafael said...

I think SBs are very important historically in baseball. The fact that managers have forgotten how to use the SB and other small-ball components is a poor reflection on managers today, not on the SB.
Vince Coleman in the Hall? No. Doing one thing well should not get anyone in the HOF (coughMacGwirecough)

nati said...
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nati said...
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CMFost said...

Week #2 Sunday Night Game - Patriots/Chargers should be a great game. I can not wait to be there.

nati said...

I AM GUYINTHECORNER
(stupid blogger has me as another name)

As we all know, I am somewhat of a fan of old ballplayers. One of my favorite players ever was Wee Willie Keeler as I'm sure you are aware of. So from a quasi/self-proclaimed expert...

Hitters in the Discussion for best ever

Barry Bonds
Babe Ruth
Ted Williams
Rogers Hornsby
Honus Wagner
Ty Cobb
Josh Gibson

No particular order. I blame no one for not including Rogers Hornsby. Historians will tell you that he was Babe Ruth when Babe Ruth was Babe Ruth, just in the NL.

CMFost said...

Don Cherry is going to be on NBC's coverage of the Stanley Cup Playoffs. I can not wait to see that.



check it out

DrDoom said...

imus and cowherd were both wrong........ but cowherd costsomeone money which is worse to me. However imus should have been suspended for a month and cowherd fired.

CMFost said...

Guy I was wondering what happened to you. I thought you were hiding after the beatdown you took in Fantasy baseball last week.

CMFost said...

drdoom I totally agree with you. Since ESPN did nothing I am hoping the biglead hires some good lawyers and sues Colin and ESPN.

nati said...

On 2 racist notes....

When A-rod hits a homerun the radio announcer for the Yankees has a catchphrase to use. It is: It's an AAAAAAAA-bomb from AAAAAAAAA-rod.
That being said, what if he homers off Dice-K (not that such a thing should ever happen) or any other Japanesse pitcher? Maybe they lost a relative to an A-bomb. That could be really offensive. He has Kei Igawa and Hideki Matsui on his own team. I say dump the phrase.

The Duke kids have been aquitted but many said that they can't get their reputations back. Some might remember that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson went crazy on these kids before they heard the (lack of) evidence. Are they on the next plane to Duke to apologize? I don't think so? They were so quick to call the kids rapists but I don't hear any apologies. They are the ones who claim to be very moral and defending the weak and innocent. But when they are the agressors of those same people with a different skin color they don't speak out???
Hipocrites.

Ryan said...

Speaking of the Milwaukee fans, here's a cool shirt...

http://www.insomniacink.com/shirtMilwaukeeIndians.htm

nati said...

cmfost-

It was not a beatdown.
I lost Trafner and Jo-mamma because of snow, wasn't able to check my team because of Passover, and you got a full point because Lidge is so bad that Oswalt had to go 9.

(The above are not excuses)

Natsfan74 said...

Top 5 greatest chefs of all time:
Betty Crocker
Mrs. Debbie
Marie Calendar
The Cajun Cook
that fish stick lady....

The new homer-friendly ballparks (and baseball era for that matter) have killed the stolen base, which was once a major part of the game. Guys like Lou Brock, Ricky Henderson, and yes - even Vince Coleman could change a game every time they got on base. The guy hitting after them saw more fastballs and they could get in scoring position no matter how they got on base. But now, why take a risk of getting someone thrown out stealing when the guy at bat hits a home run every 10 at bats or so? The home run has ruined baseball for base stealers and fundamental baseball players.

CMFost said...

Guy I had to deal with Passover also so you definetly can not use that for an excuse.

rafael said...

Re: KSK vs Ladies...

If you haven't gone over to KSK to see the two (very long) posts by the ladies, definitely do so. They are hilarious.

Glad they won...don't see how KSK would have done something as well thought out on the Ladies... page. heh

verbal97 said...

I still think some of you are OVER-emphasizing the SB. The triple crown is Avg, HR and RBI; not SB, HR and RBI. In any event, under no circumstance should Bonds be listed above Ted Williams on any best hitters list. It's sacrilege. I discount and ignore what anybody has to say if they put Barry Bonds on their top 5 (including Peter Gammons). It did my head in hearing Gammons go on about Bonds being the best hitter of all time a few years ago.

Patriots64 said...

15-1 for the Pats this season with a loss to Colts or Chargers!!

DrDoom said...

hey lots of people had to deal with passover... i mean the last remnants of matzah will probably leave my system on saturday.

stooncer said...

natsfan74:

You are way off. What about Emiril? That was hillarious.

After reading all the greatest ever posts I forgot about what I was originally going to post. Let's just wait and see where we are at the end of the season - the season really doesn't even begin until July 31 anyway.

Btw - just because Milliwakee only made $190K off the tickets, that doesn't account for parking, concessions and merchandise. I'm sure they made enough to pay the salaries of the people working at Miller Park and show the local folks a good time (since they are stuck watching the Brew Crew every game). Let's not lose perspective. I'm sure MLB will help the teams cover any lost revenue.

Also, is there a reason I need to re-register everyday to try and post something?

Mikepcfl said...

Been busy at work today, but I noticed an omission in the Top 5 QB lists.

1. Unitas (Held every record when he retired, 3 Championship rings, revolutionized the NFL, named all-time NFL QB in 2000 by HoF)

2. Montana
3. Elway
4. Marino
5. Otto Graham

Todd said...

@Verbal, I wouldn't use the Triple Crown as evidence of how unimportant the stolen base is, since RBI is so correlated with batting order (see: Cuddyer, Michael). I mean On Base and Slugging might be more important than batting avg. also. The real key is actually looking in CS%, because I think there have been some studies that show you're not really helping your team greatly unless you steal at a clip of 70% or higher (I think).

@Verbal, am curious, were you arguing that Jeter should've been MVP last year? Because the most compelling argument I heard last year about him for MVP was his SB #s compared to the rest of the candidates.

Also, Guy, I'll argue Hornsby as one of the best hitters of all time, since he was primarily an average hitter (300 HRs is good), but he also had less than 3,000 hits. During his prime years (21-29) he was unbelievable, but his lack of longevity pales in comparison to some of the other guys. Best 2B of all-time? Definitely.

But my list was best players of all-time, and I think Hornsby just isn't on there in the top 5.

Natsfan74 said...

The triple crown may include average, but I think people are starting to find that stat pretty over-rated as well. The new stats include OBP/OPS as much more important than average.

I hate Barry Bonds and am in no way a Bonds apologist. He's the only player I have ever booed at a any sporting event. But prior to 2000, he was already establishing himself as a potential top 5 baseball player of all time. In his youth (read - pre-steroid days), he could hit for respectable power and average, as well as steal bases and play gold glove defense.

Now that we can only assume he has cheated, he has tarnished his own reputation a lot. But he still has 7 MVP awards, including 3 when he was a much smaller, faster, non-cheating type player. Just using his pre-2001 stats, he has 3 MVP awards, 8 gold gloves, 8 silver sluggers, finished top 10 in the league in HR 10 times, lead the league once, lead in SBs 4 times, and lead the league in intentional walks 8 straight years. Through all of those years, he only struck out 100 times once -- in his rookie year.

If he had retired at the end of 2000, he would be a 1st ballot hall of famer, and be on a lot of top 5 lists for greatest of all time. Instead, he went on to (ahem *Cheat) win 4 more MVP awards, lead the league in home runs, set a HR record, lead the league in batting average twice, and climb into 2nd place on the all-time home run record.

So anyone who leaves Bonds off of their list of top 5 hitters of all time isn't looking at his numbers objectively -- either pre or post steroids. I hate him. I have hated him since 1990. But the guy is one of the top 5 hitters of all time no matter how you look at it.

verbal97 said...

Actually, I didn't think Jeter deserved the MVP award last year, though I wanted him to win it as a Yankees fan. Your point about RBI is a good one, but SB is contingent upon batting order, team strategy and which of the two leagues you play in (because small ball is more prevalent in the NL). I look at SBs as a bonus stat, not a qualifier that would put Bonds (ignoring the fact that he's a cheater for a second) above Williams, who lost some of his best years putting his life on the line in war and still amassed an impressive career stat line. I think the fact that a Yankee fan is arguing for the greatest Red Sox player should say all that needs to be said.

verbal97 said...

Excuse me natsfan, but Bonds wasn't even included among the top 50 players of all-time when announced at the 1999 WS. So, it's safe to say that people are using his post-steroid stats to puff up his profile. I agree that Bonds was a great player before steroids and deserves (even now) to be in the HOF, but he should never be in anyone's top 5 (or top 50) players of all-time list.

verbal97 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Todd said...

I agree that the SB has diminished in recent years, but in a way, doesn't that make Bonds' career SB totals all the more impressive?

I think Ted Williams is the better pure hitter over Bonds (especially factoring in war years vs. steroid years), but the fact that Bonds played a better defensive corner OF, and has the huge lead on steals, matters a great deal.

Ruth defined the modern slugger, and re-defined what could be done in baseball. For that he's the best player of all-time. Bonds though, (steroid argument aside), has been by far the best all-around (5 tool) player ever.

And by the way, if any of you ever play Scattergories, and famous duos and trios comes up with the letter B, use Barry Bonds and Bobby Bonilla for a 4-point score. Most feared tandem in the NL...

verbal97 said...

sorry, iffy info. Bonds was in the top 100 but was voted the 18th best outfielder of the 20 century, and had the 53rd most votes. That's not scientific, but it does say something about how people felt his pre-steroid numbers measured up.

Todd said...

I think Bonds probably should've been in the top 50 players of all-time in 1999, but you are entirely correct Verbal in that it is his "steroid years" that vault him into the elite stratosphere.

For me, purely looking at the numbers, knowing that he was the only other person who ever had "Ruthian" like years of dominance, that puts him into at least the top 5 (for me at #2).

Now, if you want to disqualify him purely for the extreme possibility he was on 'roids, I'll respect that. But you can't say that if the steroids weren't there (and he put up the same numbers) that his accomplishments wouldn't put him top 5.

Natsfan74 said...

And the first pick of the 2008 NFL draft goes to -- the loser of the Raiders/ Lions game on week 1.

Actually, the Raiders have a pretty soft start to their schedule, and could get to 3-1 before things get too tough (beating Detroit, Cleveland, and Miami).

The Patriots have a pretty brutal schedule -- San Diego in week 2, games @ CIN/ BAL/ IND/ DAL/ and NYG, hosting SD/ PIT/ and PHI. I would say of the 6 hardest non-division games on the Pats schedule, 5 are on the road.

The Redskins schedule is pretty favorable. Other than the 6 NFC East games, their only tough road trip is to New England (maybe tough at the Jets), and their first 6 games include Miami, Detroit, Arizona, and Green Bay. If they can get through that stretch 4-2, they could make a strong run.

The Colts have 12 games against teams that won at least 7 games last year. Their toughest games, @SD, @BAL and hosting NE.

Who has the hardest schedule? Who has the easiest?

CMFost said...

The Fact of the Matter is if Bonds never found steriods he would probably already be retired and a year or 2 away from being voted into the Hall of Fame on the 1st ballot. He would still go down as one of the top players to ever play the game but he would nowhere near have the numbers he has now.

verbal97 said...

todd, you're right in your assessment. I don't think that if Bonds' numbers were legit that he would at the very least be in the discussion for me. But I discount him because of the PED's that he without a doubt took. I know that many fans don't care, but for some reason I can't ignore that. For me, Bonds and the steroids era go hand in hand. Afterall, it was Bonds that forced MLB to finally(!) create a PED policy with the whole BALCO investigation, of which Bonds was the central athlete.

CMFost said...

based on the opponent won-lose pct. from the 2006 season these are the toughtest schedules.

1t. Raiders and Bills - .539
3. Patriots - .535
4. Titans - .520
5t. Colts, Jets and Chiefs - .516

rest of the list

nati said...

No responces to my racism post? Really? That disapointed me. I'll be honest. On a day when the whole Imus thing goes up I can't get a single response on should Japanesee people be offended by A-bomb being used in announcing or Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton being racists? What has this blog come to?

Todd said...

Sorry Guy, anytime Verbal makes a baseball point I feel it's my obligation to argue with him... no, actually I think we secretly agree with each other more often than not, esp. when it comes to non-Yankees/Sox issues.

But yeah, I agree that the A-Bomb thing is a bit inappropriate. I would guess that no one has voiced any protest over it, so as far as the media goes, if an insensitive comment goes unheard, does it make a sound? Anyway... you get the point. The thing with Imus is that a lot of people did get offended by this, and the people who were at the heart of it really didn't deserve that.

Now is the context of it saying that A-Rod hits "a bomb," or A-Rod hits an "A-Bomb?"

CMFost said...

I think we have just been so hammered over the head by this Imus stuff that we just ignore it. ESPN has been bashing Imus so badly that the whole Cowherd thing got swept under the rug.

nati said...

The context is that everytime A-rod hits a homer the announcer says something like this....

"And here's the pitch... swung on and driven! Deep left back, back and gone! It's an AAAAAAAA-bomb for AAAAAAAA-rod!!!"

Patriots64 said...

What's your point? They deserved to get the A bomb dropped on Japan in 1945!! If not I may not be here, my Dad had just finished the War in Europe and was in training to go to the Pacific Front!

nati said...

Interesting thing on Page 2 today about cities and their winning percentages. Of the cities with all 4 sports in them they are ranked like this.

1. New York
2. Phoenix
3. Boston
4. Detroit
5. Chicago
6. Atlanta
7. Minneapolis/St. Paul
8. Philly
9. Denver
10. Washington


2 things here...
1. There are only 10 cities that all the leagues have in common? Who knew?
2. DC, land of the losers, is my homeland and I need to accept that.

ryan from boston,ma said...

No one, except the bloggers knew about the Colin Cowheard story.You should know by now,ESPN tries to keep story's inside>>> quiet.

nati said...

pats64-

It's not if they deserved it or not. It's that it could be offensive to Japanesse people. If you lived in a foreign country, no your's doesn't count cause it's part of the USA anyway, like Japan and heard a broadcast of a baseball game where an announcer said in Japanesse "The Yalkut Swallows just don't seem to have it this year. They are sinking like a ship in Pearl Harbor." wouldn't that offend you. I'm sure they think that we deserved it. Thar's not the point. Alot of people died. That's the point.

Todd said...

Well, I won't argue the merits/problems of dropping the A-Bomb, but a few hundred thousand non-military personnel died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, so there is the possibility that some people could get offended I suppose.

But the important thing to me is the context, and at least on this one, I don't think the YES broadcasters mean anything malicious, which is good. The remark though could be considered insensitive to some I suppose, but I'm sure if they got a lot of complaints about it they'd stop.

I'm about as PC/lefty/tree-hugging as it gets for people who care about sports, and I don't find this one necessarily offensive. Perhaps a bit insensitive, but certainly not on the caliber of an Imus comment, or meant with the malicious harm of the Cowherd comment.

It wouldn't be a good idea though if he used it against Dice-K...

Patriots64 said...

"One of the reasons that the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan was to avoid the need of an invasion of the Japanese home islands. American casualties in the attrition of the Japanese held islands in the Pacific had been very high and there was no reason to expect an invasion of Japan to be any easier. In fact just the opposite was to be expected if the previous two campaigns against the Japanese held islands of Iwo Jima and Okinawa were an example. An idea of the tenacity of the Japanese defenders can be seen from the following statistics. The battle of Iwo Jima took from mid-February 1945 until late March, during these five weeks the 20,700 Japanese defenders were killed at the cost of 6,800 US Marines dead and 20,000 wounded. The conquest of Okinawa from April 1st 1945 until late June cost the lives of 83,000 Japanese defenders and killed 12,500 US Marines and wounded 35,500 more. In both cases very few Japanese were taken alive, either by choosing to commit seppuku or ritual suicide, rather than surrender or due to a reticence on the part of the Marines to take prisoners. Simply extrapolating these figures provides us with an inkling of what an invasion of the main Japanese islands would have entailed. The Japanese nation had 80 million citizens, most of who were, in theory, prepared to fight against the invaders, with spears and bows and arrows if need be (Coox 88). Even taking a conservative percentage of, say 10%, we would still have 800,000 people willing to do their duty and fight to the last bamboo spear. Using the same casualty ratio as the fighting on Okinawa, we can assume US casualties of around 120,000 dead and perhaps three times that number wounded. It is unlikely that the Allies would have the political will to take such losses; after all they had been fighting for many years at this point. And surely the conservative estimate of 800,000 Japanese killed makes the 210,000 killed in the two atomic blasts pale in comparison. If looked at purely in terms of the possible lives saved, the choice to drop the atomic bombs was clearly the least costly."
First, the Japanese had instigated the war, first by invading China in 1937 and perpetrating horrific war crimes upon the Chinese people and second by attacking US and Allied bases and possessions in the Pacific. Second, it could be argued that all wars are fought to defend a unique culture, for what culture is not unique? Perhaps for guilt-ridden westerners, only non-white cultures are given the privilege of being "unique". It could easily be argued that Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy were unique cultures, yet to defend either of those regimes is to be considered a dangerous fringe element. Or further, perhaps we should say, "for most Americans, it was a war to defend their unique western culture against Eastern imperialism", which would be accurate, yet not politically correct.


The idea that the atomic bombs were only used against Japan out of some racist preference for incinerating Asians also does not hold much water. Germany, Italy and Rumania were bombed mercilessly by the US and Britain during the final three years of the war. The German city of Dresden was firebombed out of existence and it contained no real military targets. It was fairly well known that the Japanese mistreated their prisoners, an example would be the Baatan Death March where Allied POW's were forced to march for several days without adequate food or medical attention while any stragglers were shot or bayoneted. This sort of activity leads to a spiral of reciprocal atrocities, as each side begins to see the taking of prisoners as undesirable. This was very common in the fighting between Germany and the Soviet Union, and the western Allies were unlikely to take members of the German SS prisoner because the SS had a reputation for shooting Allied POW's. As this shows, racism is not a prerequisite for the willingness to commit acts of violence on ones fellow men.
Once it was seen that atomic weapons were awful in their power and destructive ability, they, like poison gas, were banned from warfare as being too terrible. This is as it should be, since the nuclear weapon of today makes the Hiroshima bomb look a child's toy in comparison. Without the knowledge of what the bombs would accomplish when used against a city, it is certainly likely that they may have been used in a general war between the communists and the west. Unfettered by the fear of just such a holocaust, Cold War tensions would have no doubt turned to direct conflict, with disastrous consequences. Perhaps in a way, the bombing was necessary to see the danger in using such weapons, an X-ray of Pandora's Box in a sense. But ultimately, the dropping of the atomic bombs probably saved hundreds of thousands of lives, both Allied and Japanese. If this would have been preferable to using atomic weapons, one has to ask, why? By what measure would the deaths of possibly millions and the destruction of the Japanese homeland been a better choice than the two bombs. The atomic bombs that destroyed the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the exclamation points that marked the end of a horrible and brutal war that was started by fascist nations and brought to its end by those they sought to defeat."


I would say that the large majority of Japanese Citizens would not be offended by this remark and that they realize their country was on the wrong side in WW2!

Todd said...

Did you just cut and paste from a term paper?

Anyway, without getting into a debate over this, I don't think anyone views the deaths of over 200,000 civilians (in any context) as an inherently good thing. So even if it was "justified", it's still not something that I'm sure we should celebrate, right?

I mean, to put it in a slightly exaggerated context, it would probably be inappropriate to call out that Ortiz just fire-bombed one over the Green Monster, right?

Patriots64 said...

Again this A-Bomb thing is fine in my books even off Dice-K!! I see nothing wrong with it and obviously Yankee broadcasters and management don't as well!!!!!!!!!!

rafael said...

Clearly. but if we insulted Belichick or Brady, your panties would get all wadded up.

Andy said...

Talk about going off on a tangent and a thread jacking. What the crap guys???