Tuesday, October 09, 2007

Tuesday 10/09 A.M. Quickie:
Yankees Out! What Next For Torre?

Today's Name to Know: Joe Torre. (And then there's everyone else.)

MLB: Indians oust Yankees at the Stadium in 4 Games. Congrats to Cleveland (and I'm rooting that they oust Boston in the ALCS), but the story today is about the Yankees. What next?

No, seriously: WHAT NEXT?!?! (That's supposed to reflect the pain and confusion within Yankees Nation.)

Will Joe Torre get fired? Should he? (I personally think few managers could do better, but despite the massive investment, he has failed to produce a title in the postseason since 2000. It's been a while. Also, despite going 6-0 against the Indians in the regular season, he and the team went 1-3 when it mattered.)

Anyway, Steinbrenner will "fire" Torre, then get crushed in the media, despite the fact that playoff success has eluded the manager for seven seasons, including the most epic playoff collapse in sports history. Here's the deal: MAKING the playoffs simply isn't enough when you're the Yankees (or when you're spending as much as the Yankees are spending).

I question whether the Yankees can find another manager better equipped to deal with the pressure and the players enough to win a championship (Girardi? Piniella?), but it's not like Torre has been winning titles recently himself. I know some fans would like to see him named "Manager For Life" (or whenever he wants to retire), but that's not how it works.

The Yankees are entering a new era -- the post-Boss era (and, sure, the post-Torre era, too) -- and they probably need a new manager to go along with it.

Will A-Rod return to NY? Should he? (I think he'll opt out, and I think he should. It hasn't been a good fit, despite his best-ever season at the plate. He is better off elsewhere, and the Yankees can use the $25 million a year it would take to keep him elsewhere, too.)

Will the Yankees become financially prudent? Not exactly. I think the era of the $20M Clemens signings is over, especially with the young arms the team has developed. They could use some lineup pop to replace A-Rod, though.

Mark Cuban really wants to buy the Cubs: And if MLB was smart, they would let him. (They never will, of course; he's a little too outspoken.)

MNF: Bills give Cowboys a game, but Dallas eke out a W. Congrats to the Bills for putting up as good of a fight as possible on national TV in primetime. They obliterated the previous Tony Romo magic (5 INTs, including 2 INT-TD) and gave Dallas all it could handle. A loss is still a loss (and, for Dallas, a win is still a win), but even in crushing defeat, there's a smidgen of moral victory, considering most fans figured that the Bills would get embarrassed.

Jake Delhomme out for the season: With David Carr as the next-best option and Delhomme's future shaky, the Panthers join the growing list of teams that could use a QB from the 2008 Draft's amazing group.

Marion Jones returns Olympic medals: It was the right thing to do, and of all of the athlete reactions to being involved with PEDs, Jones' reaction was the smartest, most honorable and reputation-helping.

USC QB Controversy: John David Booty vs. Mark Sanchez. I know Booty has the broken finger and is Carroll's guy, but given that Booty lost to STANFORD (at home!), effectively ruining the Trojans' season, I'd say there's no downside to giving Sanchez the job.

CFB BlogPoll Top 25 Ballot: USC No. 25.

CoachOfTheYear.com This Week: Zook! Harbaugh! The latest standings! I invite you to check out the site, my guest-blog and leave your latest analysis in the comments about which coach or coaches are emerging as the top contenders for this year's Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year award. (And don't forget to vote!)

-- D.S.

125 comments:

Matt T said...

I know its not quite the same, but Bobby Cox went to the playoffs for 14 straight years* and one 1 world series. And yet there is not huge out cry to get reid of him and that's after missing the playoffs for 2 straight years.

Is it just the hypersensitivity of the NY fan and NY media? I always say you can't win unless you get into the playoffs and Torre has gotten them there for the past 12 years. Anything can happen in a 5 or 7 game series. They went up against Carmona and Sabbathia this year, in a 5 game series that's tough.

Jonathan said...

"He is better off elsewhere, and the Yankees can use the $25 million a year it would take to keep him elsewhere, too."

Wouldn't that money best be spent on ARod? Yeah why spend it on the best player in baseball.

pv845 said...

I agree with the Cox comparison, but I think there is a difference. Cox only won one WS while Torre may be a victim of his own success. I think that NYY are going to have a tough time in the near future. I know that they didn't score a lot of runs, but when you give up 12, 4, 2, and 6 runs in games, I would say their pitching is the problem.

Go Cleveland! (coming from a Royals fan)

Jonathan said...

I agree Matt, you judge your manager on the season, not 4 games. I think Torre did a great job this year.

pv845 said...

I almost forgot, USC at 25!?! I know that you are anti-everything that isn't UF, but when they lost to an unranked team you didn't drop them like this.

Toby said...

Florida and Texas both lose back to back games and move up a spot in your rankings?

We all know Dan blows the SEC, but I guess he is taking a liking to the Big 12 as well.

After blasting Big 10 teams all year long, can you honestly say the big 12 is in any better shape than the big 10?

Sparty said...

Congrats to all Indians fans, go get the Red Sox. This crow tastes wonderful!

Regardless of whatever the Steinbrenner doctrine says about only World Series matters, Torre has not been the problem. It has been starting pitching ever since 2003. People want to blame him for how he handles his bullpen, but how is he not suppose to rely upon them when he cannot get 7-8 innings out of his starters, ever? It is ridiculous, no need for change. Get Pettitte to stay as the Vet on the staff, and go to work with Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Wang. Let the kids throw the ball, forget the damn pitch counts once in awhile. damn!.

If this is Joe's last year, so long Joe,thanks for 12 great years, thanks for the World Series titles of my generation. we will miss you!

CMFost said...

The Yankees Playoffs Failures with A-Rod:

2004 - Worst Choke in the History of Baseball - Losing 4-3 to the Red Sox after leading 3-0

2005 - Lost ALDS
2006 - Lost ALDS
2007 - Lost ALDS

When your highest paid and best player does not perform in the playoffs then his $25M salary can be better spent somewhere else

Sparty said...

25m spent where? the FA market is barren. The only guy worth going after was Zambrano, but he is locked up now. They need, and should keep A-Rod, at whatever cost.

CMFost said...

Sparty that is why i was rooting for the Yankees to beat the Indians well not really rooting but hoping the Red Sox got to face the Yankees pitching in the ALCS especially once Clemens was gone. But I have to say it good to see the 2 best teams actually advance and it should be a great series.

As a Red Sox fan i do not think Torre should be fire. With any other manager the Yankees this year probably would not of even made the playoffs let alone almost win the division. With all the injuries it was a great regular season and when it all came down to it in the playoffs the yankees just did not get the performance they needed from there best players and their pitching was weak.

Jonathan said...

Clearly it's Arod's fault they haven't won in they playoff since they got him, even though they didn't in 2001, 2002 and 2003.

Also without Arod they aren't even in the playoffs this year. He was actually one of the better hitters on the Yankees this post season, I know it's not saying much, but give some credit to the Indians pitching who did a phenomenal job.

Contrary to popular belief he does perform in the playoffs, but go ahead and paint whatever picture you want to paint.

Mr. Ed said...

Regarding the Cowboys-Bills game last night... I am a lifelong Cowboys fan, but I still think overall, this Cowboys team is not as good as everyone is making them out to be. It has the feel of those teams who really shouldn't be in the playoffs, but due to a weak division or a mathematical formula, they make it in somehow. The power rankings have had them in the top 4-5 teams all year, but I'm not seeing it. They may be one of the best in the NFC right now, but the Pats, Colts, etc., will expose their weaknesses.

PatriotsNation said...

Torre wanted to start Mussina but was overruled by Steinbrenner and company! Torre has done well considering the circus clown he works for!! Red Sox over Indians in 5, Rockies over Dbacks in 6.

CMFost said...

Jonathan in A-rod last 59 postseason at bats going back to the 2004 ALCS here are some of his stats:

• went 8-for-59, a .136 batting average.

• batted with a total of 38 runners on base and left every single one of them on base. Not one did he drive in. He went 0-for-27, including 11 strikeouts, in at-bats with runners on.

• went 0-for-12 with a total of 17 runners in scoring position, driving in none of them.


How could you say his failure to drive in runs has not hurt the Yankees in the postseason.

CMFost said...

also my bet is if the Torre goes this yankees team is going to be very different next year. As in I think Posada and Rivera follow Torre to his next job.

C Gally said...

Dear Mr. Torre,

Will you work for free?

Love,
Pirates' Fans

Chris said...

Seriously Dan, you are a joke. We all laugh at your pseudo devotion to Florida and think it's quant you're such a homer for your wife's team. Do you want anyone to actually take you seriously? You can't think that anyone will when come out with a Top 25 poll where Florida and Texas actually lose and move up? Auburn (like Florida with 2 losses but having beaten the Gators in Gainesville) is 8 spots below Florida?

I like to visit this site (almost exclusively for the comments, not that you care because you still get the hit) but I'm sure there are many like me, who cannot take your knowledge of sports even remotely seriously. Not when you post a Top 25 poll like that. Between your UF homerism and seemingly getting at least one fact wrong a day in your Morning Quickie, you're turning into a parody of yourself. A little harsh? Perhaps, but sometimes the truth is a brutal thing. Take it for what it's worth.

Tunsney said...

I think the Yankees can use that extra 25m towards a long term deal for Johan Santana after they trade for him this off-season. The Twins cannot afford to lose him to free agency so therefore will trade him this winter. With the money they save they could possibly re-sign Torii Hunter.

The heroin sheik said...

Dan the cowboys did not hang on last night. They grasped victory out of the jaws of defeat.

I wonder who is going to be suiting up for the Bucs at RB. I really hope they try to get Ricky "Sticky Icky" Williams.

It is so depressing knowing your favorite team has no chance at the Natl Title. It is like losing the first round of March Madness. All there is left to root for is to beat UGA and FSU and hope we get a rematch with LSU because on a neutral field I think we could take them if Meyer doesn't mess up the clock management. At least then we could ruin someone else's season.

The heroin sheik said...

I think the reason Bobby Cox can manage as long as he wants is because unlike the Yankees, the Braves rarely had much success before he got to the club. Of course his first stint as Manager and GM blew, but I think Southerners are used to keeping winning coaches around forever.

Lance A Boyle said...

I think your comment about the Yankees going 6-0 against the Indians in the regular season dramatically points out what's currently wrong with the Wild Card system... You can't have teams from different divisions competing for the one playoff spot when the schedules are so vastly different! The Sox and Yankees played 19 times. The Indians and Yankees played 6 times. So, all those teams battling for the Wild Card were not playing remotely similar schedules! And don't get me started on the Interleague play. This must be overhauled!!

CMFost said...

What is worse Dan moving up Florida in the Polls or USC still being a top 10 team after losing to a 41 point underdog at home. I think USC still being a top 10 team and still having a chance at the nat'l title if team above them keep losing. there is no way anyone should ever vote USC the #1 team again this season unless they are the only team in the country with 1 loss

Lance A Boyle said...

I disagree about Marion Jones reaction. She denied it for years, despite the fact that her former husband and current boyfriend at that time had both been busted for using. She entered a lawsuit. And, yet, all that time she was denying it, who didn't believe she had used the PEDs? No one I know of believed her. NOW, when she's finally caught with the evidence, she comes out tearful and talks about how she's let us down. To me, there is nothing honorable about her "confession" which only came about because she had to find some way to explain to her friends why they wouldn't be seeing her for six months.

Jaimie said...

I have to say I've been reading this blog for almost a year now and have enjoyed reading the posts and Dan's blog going back to his Quickie Days @ the WWL. As a Buckeye Fan I took his crap all last year (deservedly - we got our asses handed to us by UF) but now suddenly when UF is tanking Dan is quiet as church mouse on the subject. How convenient. No mention at all of the UF defeat over the weekend? What gives? And now you're going to move them up in the polls? Get Real!

BLT said...

re: "smidgen of moral victory"

From a SI quote in the late '90's - "Moral victories are for losers", Dave Nutbrown, Head Coach Men's Basketball Acadia University (Nova Scotia, Canada).

I remember the quote because I was a student there and it was big time that he got quoted in SI.

Also, I was at the MNF game last night and not being a supporter of either team it was one of the best games I have ever been at. Bills fans have taken it on the chin twice this year with last second FG's and their fans were pissed (and pissed drunk!).

BLT

Sparty said...

Trade for Santana? Look, the Yanks are still rebuilding their farm teams. They will not trade Kennedy, Horne, Joba or Hughes. They have one position player in Tabata that his off limits, and the only player under contract that the Twins could take is Melky,and the Yanks will not give him up, he is their CF for the next 10 years. The only thing they can hope for is someone trades for santana as a hired gun in august and then he becomes a FA for the 09 season.

Tunsney said...

You all need to stop crying about your college teams. I am a(yes one of seven) Gopher fan. We are on our way to a 1 win season. We are ranked 119 out of 119 teams in division 1 against the pass. We have star receivers saying they won't play for us because our defenders are so bad they cannot make him better. That is sad.

pv845 said...

@ Turnsey, I think that your Gophers could take the Golden Domers. :)

Sparty said...

then there Sparty fans, who once again are witnessing the post Notre Dame game meltdown.

Mr. Ed said...

I forgot to comment on the Marion Jones thing... Dan thinks her returning the medals was the "smartest, most-honorable, and reputation-helping"? She was only avoiding the inevitable fate of having them torn from her grasp by the Olympic committee. Her years of denials are from the same handbook as "I did not have sexual relations with that woman - Miss Lewinski. I never told anybody to lie, not a single time...."

And now hearing that her relay teammates will probably have to forfeit their gold medals, too, because her cheating vacates the win? Wow. Stinks when someone else has to pay for your stupidity.

Jonathan said...

"batted with a total of 38 runners on base and left every single one of them on base."

do you mean after game 4 of the 2004 ALCS? cause he drove in 5 that series and he only hit 2 home runs, so you are wrong.

Also before that series he had a .361 avg in the post season. So he has performed in the post season, just not in the last couple of years and clearly that's all that should be taken into consideration.

jbiz said...

That Bills loss was not a moral victory, not even close.

All Trent Edwards was asked to do was not blow the game, and he did with a pick in the red zone. Romo did the Bills a favor with his 5th pick, and the Bills still couldn't capitalize. They threw on third and 8 when Dallas was in a dime defense. Had they run the ball, they would have taken an extra 40 to 45 off the clock. Since Dallas scored on the ensuing possession with 20 seconds left, that matters. Same thing happened against Denver.

Two defensive TDs and a KOR for a TD and still lose at home? Plus six to one turnover differential? What is positive about that?

Sparty said...

Jonathon, he has stunk over the last few years though, but for the most part the rest of the Yanks have been as well.

bkelly126 said...

your poll is joke dan. no 2 loss team (no matter how "good") should be ahead of any undefeated team or any 1 loss team. as a Tennessee fan, it warms my heart that Florida may have won the battle but we may win the war in the East.

Kevin Hayward said...

I think the Yankees are ready to head in a different direction. Joe Torre has done a great job, and as you mentioned, I am not confident whoever replaces him will be a better fit for the job, per se.

My guess is that Girardi will be the man. He turned down the Orioles job (hard to blame him), so he may have been keeping his options for this position, which could have been promised to him in the event that Torre didn't deliver this year. Pure speculation, of course.

And as for A-Rod, I agree that he should get out of the NY spotlight while he still can. He doesn't thrive under pressure, but he can still close out his career in style, dignity, and dollars somwewhere else.

Jonathan said...

oh sorry cmfost, i didn't see his last 59 at bats, why count the 80 or so before those. They don't count

stacker said...

A few things...

I think ARod stays. I don't think he'll opt out. He's stubborn, and he'll want to win a title in NY (which he probably won't). The Yanks aren't even paying him $25MM a year...Texas is covering I believe about $8MM or so of that each year through the end of the contract.

Why do we kill ARod and Jeter gets off scot free? Grounds into three double plays the last two games. I guess he has more postseason success to fall back on, but what did he do right this series? If ARod grounded into 3 DP's and made a terrible error in Game 3 (which was somehow ruled a base hit), he would have been burned alive in Times Square by now.

Torre will probably not be resigned. Which is a shame, as no one is better equipped to manage this team. He hasn't had success the past few years, but there's only so much the manager can do.

As for future rounds, my pick remains Boston over Arizona.

And Dan, USC at 25, and Florida at 10, with Auburn at 18? Remember this quote last year Dan?

"I have always preached you have to rank based on the "body of evidence," not projection. My feeling that Florida would beat Auburn on a neutral field shouldn't play into where I rank them THIS week, given that Florida lost to Auburn head-to-head and haven't played since, to give me any evidence they should be ranked higher. "

And Florida is 8 spots higher than Auburn this year?

CMFost said...

Why does Jeter get off without being bashed and A-Rod does not it is really simple Jeter has lead his team to a championship, A-Rod has not.

marcomarco said...

Since the Yankees last won, they have spent over a billion dollars.

Think about that.

I was rooting for them last night, for the selfish reason of using up as much pitching on both teams as possible. An 18 inning game 5 would've been nice.

Sox in 6.

Boston said...

Why are Boston fans such homers?

marcomarco said...

Why does Jeter get off without being bashed and A-Rod does not it is really simple Jeter has lead his team to a championship, A-Rod has not.

Anyone hating Arod (and I do) needs to check out Mr. October's stats here.

Derek Jeter
AB 17
R 0
H 3
2B 0
3B 0
HR 0
TB 3
RBI 1
BB 0
SO 4
SB 0
BA .176
OBP .176
SLG .176
OPS .353

Two of his three hits arrived last night. With a rally KILLING double play in the seventh that practically ended the game.

danthemanwise said...

But didnt A-Rod hit .361 at one point in the Post Season?

The botttom line is it is what have you done for me lately, and A-Rod, while not having great numbers against the Tribe, did much better then Jeter. Mr Clutch, was not clutch and hurt the Yanks more then A-Rod.

Lance,
while I see your point about the Wild-Card unbalance, by following that logic, we might as well get rid of the divisions as whole since the D-Rays and Orioles are never going to get to the Post Season becase of the Yanks and Sox. In the other two divisions they might.

That is why when analysts talk about Parity, they miss this concept. Sure there are different teams in the play-offs every year but there are certain teams that will never be able to in forseeable future with the current structure

Chris said...

Great post Stacker. Why would Dan change his stated rules on ranking college football teams from last year to this? Because he is a joke. If he was even slightly logical about anything to do with UF sports he could be taken seriously. However, he is not so his opinions aren't worth being considered. I'd be willing to bet if he put out a Heisman ballot right now that Tebow would still be at the top of it. Depsite the fact that the last time anyone saw him he was crying in Baton Rouge like he was Dick Vermeil after watching "Brian's Song".

Jen said...

GO TRIBE!!!! I finally get to post that since the comments were gone this ENTIRE series.

That was a great series and it showed everyone what a great team the Indians have. Excuses, excuses from Yankee Nation with the exception of sparty who enjoyed his crow ;)

I don't think Torre is to blame for the demise of the organization. It's just like what happened to the Cubs: no hitting and "all right" pitching isn't going to do it. I love how Rocket WASN'T the answer and they crapped all of that money for him. HAHAHAHA

Tribe in 6.

I just LOVE how Dan does not make a comment about Florida's loss to LSU. I even went back and checked his weekend posts again. C'mon Dan, you can't take the good with the bad when the Gators can't hold on to their lead!?

Oh, and Marion Jones is a joke. Ugh.

CMFost said...

Jonathan said...Also without Arod they aren't even in the playoffs this year. He was actually one of the better hitters on the Yankees this post season,


Yeah 4 for 15 with 1 HR and 1 RBI he was great in this postseason

Boomhauertjs said...

The Curse of Giambino lives!!!

toddthesecond said...

Yankees, ARod, Captain Jetes: do you think maybe SOME of the credit should go to the TEAM WHO BEAT THEM? The Indians DO have a pretty great pitching staff after all.

It's depressing as HELL to wake up the morning after your team wins a big series and it's all about the Yankees choking instead of being about the other team being BETTER and showing it over four games (well, three of the four anyway....)

Good pitching beats good hitting, and the Tribe has GOOOOOOOOOD pitching. These are NOT scrubs we beat and they didn't so much choke as run up against a buzzsaw of a staff. We didn't just luck into this shit because the Yanks choked, but you read headlines and listen to broadcasters and that's what you'd think. I understand Cleveland gets no respect, but come on -- WE WON!! What else do we have to do to get a little credit or respect?

Brett said...

Anyone who is a Yankee fan knows you don't just let the best player in baseball walk. People like Dan are hilarious, who, after the season ARod has had, say he can't handle the pressure. People can talk about his postseason numbers all they want - the fact is, he has not been the problem. The problem, of course, is pitching, and every true Yankee fan knows that's the problem. We have not had the Becketts and Schillings with ice water in their veins who can go out there and shut down a team when the pressure is on.

Toby said...

Where can I get a Shanoff + Tebow BFF t-shirt? I know they have to be out there...

Sparty said...

Yankee fans are not discrediting the Indians, they are just focused on their team, looking at the weaknesses and how they can get better. The Indians outplayed the Yanks, no doubt. I love Grady Sizemore, think he is aweseome. I hate Victor Martinez only because for a 1/2 year back in 05 he killed my fantasy team,lol. Carmona was just filthy and stayed focused, even with the Locust Invasion. Great job by the Indians.

pv845 said...

I think looking at the Yankees this offseason and running with everyone else has said you look at what the team that beat you had... PITCHING!

I forgot in my earlier post to say KU is ranked, in Football! Rock Chalk Jayhawk!

Todd said...

I think I hope the Tigers go after A-Rod. Getting rid of Casey and adding A-Rod would be an amazing boost to the lineup - Mags and A-Rod on the same team would be dirty. Just hope their pitching can stay healthy and one or more of the young Ps can step up next year.

rafael said...

How were the Bills not embarassed? Their offense scored 3 points.

SF said...

Michigan back in the Shanoff Top 25...

You the man, Dan

GO BLUE

SF said...

Heisman Watch...

How is Mike Hart not the favorite right now...

He is leading the nation in rushing.

He is without a doubt the most valuable person to his respective team in D-1.

He played very well in both Michigan losses and single-handedly carried Big Blue out from the depths to put them back on the map (and in the Shanoff Top 25).

Booty is out with the loss.
Woodson should be out with the loss.
McFadden is not even the bet on his team right now, and I think he fumbled twice last week.
And Jackson does not touch the ball enough.

I guess the biggest rival for Hart would be Matt Ryan...

Go Blue

Sparty said...

Granted Hart is a tough guy, without a doubt plays hurt. But how is he ever gonna stay healthy when he gets hit by guys hitting him at higher speeds, bone crushing hits in the NFL?

CMFost said...

sf if you take in account the team record then the heismen should probably be:

1. Ryan - BC
2. Brennan - Hawaii
3. Hart - Mich

ToddTheJackass said...

First of all, congrats to the Indians. They've been a phenomenal team all year, and haven't gotten the respect they deserve. Even as a Red Sox fan, I can't say that there's really a definitive advantage in terms of the two teams.

The Red Sox have a stronger middle-of-the-order providing that Manny is back, but the Indians have a more consistent back end of the lineup. Red Sox definitely have the edge in terms of closer, but Betancourt is hands down the best setup man in the bunch. Indians have a better #2 starter than the Red Sox, but the Red Sox have a better #3 starter...

Really all I'm saying is that anyone who thinks the Red Sox will run away with the ALCS are totally insane.

JG said...

Thank you Dan Shanoff for your upbeat Buffalo post. I was really down on my team today.

CycleDan said...

Yanks got beat simply because Cleveland starting pitching was superior. The Yanks hope was to keep it close and win the games against the Cleveland pen. Only problem with that was Cleveland pen - specifically Perez - was better.

Jeter gets a pass since this is his first real bad postseason and he has consistently brought it home in the past. A-Rod had good postseason numbers early in his career with the Mariners. Yankee fans don't care about that.

When you return a KO and two INTs for TDs in a game like the Bills did, and the other team throws 5 picks, you expect to win. The fact that the Bills blew the game despite Dallas playing as badly as they can doesn't bode well for them. Not only are the Pats one of the two top teams (Colts) but the rest of the division sucks and will give them no competition. Tough times.

I can't seriously root for the Diamondbacks or Rockies. I guess I have to cheer half heartedly for the Indians to win their first one in a long time.

Marion Jones apology is meaningless since she spent years denying it and only confessed because she had to. I am sure all her competition was cheating as well. With so much focus on the winner, is the 2nd place finisher really clean - give me a break. I think they shouldn't award the medals at all.

Sparty said...

Heisman race is wide open. Looks like we might have a Gino Toretta award this season.

ToddTheJackass said...

Matt Ryan for Heisman! Woohoo!

Yeah, well, BC really hasn't played anyone. But I'm still enjoying this one while it lasts. I don't think there are any BC fans out there that realistically think we can run the table, but it's been fun. Notre Dame actually worries me since we've beaten them in the past when they were undefeated, and so no doubt they'll be looking for some payback.

Also, don't we all know by now to take Dan's rankings with a grain of salt. There's totally fandom there, as Florida gains a spot after losing their second game, but USC loses their first and drops 20 spots... come on guys, don't take it for more than this really is.

Erik said...

Oklahoma lost to 4-2 Colorado (2-10 last year) away.
USC lost to 2-3 Stanford (1-11 last year) at home.

One is ranked #7 in your poll, one is ranked #25 and gets your (as usual, spur-of-the-moment) title of "biggest CFB upset ever".

I'd love to see some justification of that.

The heroin sheik said...

Is dan's fandom for the gators any worse that what spurrier does in the opening poll every year by ranking duke 25? I think even with the real polls there is some personal bias involved. Who really cares.

Sparty said...

I know Northwestern went on to have their greatest season ever back in 95, but you gotta consider their win that year of ND to be greatest ever. I mean it was the worst program in college football, against the best program in college football. Does it not garner the "Greatest Upset Ever" because Northwestern was successful that season? I would say that is began their greatest seasone ever, right? Or am i totally out of bounds with that? I have a feeling most will say that NW justified the win because of the rest of their season.

Geoff said...

Sparty, have you actually watched Hart play... he doesn't ever take hard hits. Too shifty.

And yes, I think we all realize Dan's top 25s are a joke by now.

Sparty said...

geoff, yes i have watched him run and be shifty for 4 years against us (well actuall 3 until this seasons game happens). Even Bush has been lit up in the NFL. The only RB I ever saw not take what looked to be a hard hit in the pro's was Barry Sanders. However, just your regular tackles in the pros are much harder.

pv845 said...

@ Sheik: Yes, what Dan does is a lot worse than what Spurrier does.

Spurrier ranks a team 25th, before ANY games are played in the season.

Dan: Rank UF, a two-loss team, above another two-loss team that beat them. He moves UF up along with TX after a loss. He drops USC to 25 after losing their first game.

That to me is a huge difference.

Eric said...

Big USC fan here so I'll just get that out in the open. Last Friday I sent this to a friend as we were discussing the upcoming weekend "Thank goodness USC is playing Stanford. Although, I have a nagging feeling the game is going to be closer than it should be."

There's no way I thought they'd lose but the offense just isn't right. Its kinda odd, because it seems 80-90% of the media out in SoCal is trying their hardest to not blame Booty. The comments seem to go along the lines of all the young receivers not running routes correctly or with enough verve.

I'm sorry but is it a problem with all the WR/TE/RB/FB, or maybe the guy throwing the rock.

I'll admit I've never felt comfortable with John David at the helm. He's good(bad) for at least one tipped pass a game. The biggest reason is this. He seems to try meticulously to place the ball only where he receiver can catch it. A vert good trait, obviously. But with JD it seems its to an extreme. Half the time the Receiver has to make an extremely athletic catch to nab his placement. And then when he's off, forget it.

JD's slim Heisman hopes are gone. As long as USC was sitting on top I would never have considered moving him. Even if they were winning despite him. I believe, if nothing else, he and Sanchez should be splitting even time this week in practice. Heck, even give Booty a week off to get his head (and finger) straight. They have UA this weekend. This USC team "should" be able to take them without Booty. Blame the injured finger and sit him this week. Then make it a competition for the Notre Dame game.

As far as the polls go, I couldn't care less where people want to place USC after this loss. If they win out they will be in the conversation for the National Championship. Cal and Oregon are that good. If they don't then fine. It is in their hands.

Fight On!

Joey said...

Like I said before, I'll take my chances against anyone with the Indians pitching and hitting. They may not be the flashiest of teams, but they get timely hits and they get guys out. This series against the Red Sox is going to be tough as the teams are very similar. I'd say game 1 is a tossup matchup wise, game 2 an edge to Cleveland, and game 3 an edge to Boston, but anything can happen.

I wish some more people would give the Indians some credit for WINNING this series rather than the Yankees LOSING this series.

I'm also glad I won't have to hear Chip Caray say "Here come the Yankees!" after some meaningless single and then follow it up with what he said last night after the Indians had scored and had 1 out with Hafner on first with Martinez up, "Wang is 1 pitch away from getting out of this".

The heroin sheik said...

Yeah but it isn't like dan's poll really has any impact on the nat'l title. Shit I still think the gators are the second best team in the country after LSU and I am convinced we could beat them half the time on a neutral field. Of course I could care less about the polls. All I care about is beating UT, UGA, and FSU and winning the SEC. anything other than that makes it a great year in my book.

ToddTheJackass said...

Okay, in regards to Torre, here's what I think.

He should actually go. Not that he deserves to be fired, but that it's really time to move on. The Yankees I think need to undergo at least one year of rebuilding, getting guys like Hughes, Joba, Humberto Sanchez, and Kennedy a lot of innings, taking their lumps, etc. They need to take some risks in developing some middle relievers. They clearly have enough RHP that somebody like a Clippard or a Karstens could become a decently effective middle reliever.

The thing is, what can we all agree Torre is very good at? He's extremely good at protecting his players from the media, and he's also great at gaining the loyalty of his veteran players. Conversely, he's pretty lousy about not trusting many relievers, not giving young guys the chance to prove themselves, and perhaps over-trusting veterans for too long.

Considering that I think the Yankees need to turn it over a bit, trust in their young pitching, etc., I just think it'd be a good idea for a new coach (preferably Girardi) to come in and start fresh with the new squad of young pitching that they've been developing. Otherwise, you can be damn sure that Joba's arm will probably fall off at some point from overuse, and that Mike Mussina will continue to pitch in meaningful games.

It's not that Torre deserves to be fired, but I think it's time for him and the organization to move in a different direction.

Sparty said...

Geez Indian fans, you really do not know how to handle winning do you? I guess that makes sense since it is Cleveland. Quit bitching about the Yanks.

pv845 said...

@ Sheik: I agree that his polls are meaningless, but take it at least a little seriously.

Second best team??!?! Are you kidding me? They lost AT HOME to Auburn. They lost to LSU and wouldn't beat them on a neutral field.

Chaddogg said...

Cuban may have a decent shot at getting the Cubs.

Zell is splitting Wrigely and some of the Cubs broadcasting companies apart from the team....this would dilute the value of the team itself, since the Cubs without Wrigley/CSN/etc. would be much less valuable. Zell could blackmail/force/hijack MLB into accepting Cuban's bid by selling him Wrigley/CSN/etc., and then saying "make Cuban owner since he's the highest bidder for the team, because otherwise he'll sabotage the Cubs with a higher lease for Wrigley and demand greater broadcast fees, etc."

Sneaky? Yes. But good for Cubs fans who want Cuban to own the team.

Mills said...

glad to see you didn't go to the dark side and start censoring comments.

i actually agree. time for torre to move on.

a-rod too.

to my cardinals at SS? wishful thinking i am sure.

JD said...

Good to see that you haven't had the ESPN beaten out of you. Proven by your staunch commitment to spend all of your time talking about the Yankees instead of the more impressive Indians. The super saturation of Yankeeism already had me in a tailspin, then I have to read your dive into the pile.

Thanks ESPN lite!

danthemanwise said...

Spraty, what are you talking about.

The Indians fans are not bitching about the Yanks, they simply would prefer people to realize this team is good. All anyone hears is the Yanks LOST becuase they did not hit or did not pitch, when in fact it was Cleveland who WON because they could hit in the clutch and pitch when it counted. IMO that is not bitching but asking for respect, which they deserve.

Plus, so I sense a little jealousy since they beat the Tigers this year! J/K

GuyInTheCorner said...

I bring you a quote from last season after the Yanks announced that Torre would return as manager after their loss to the Tigers in the ALDS:

OK, so here's the thing...
Why would George fire Torre?

We all know Torre is a bad manager, but if he was going to be fired for being a bad manager it would have been in the post-2004 ALCS.

BTW, I'm not making up this next thing...

Joe Torre once (2 years ago) switched his lineup and had this: Bernie Williiams: CF and Kenny Lofton: DH

Everyone knows that Bernie is as good in center as Steven Hawking and that Lofton is above average. It's not playing Lofton over Bernie, if he played Bernie instead nobody would have cared. It was playing both and having Bernie in CF and Lofton DH.

When asked by a reporter what the hell this was about, Torre said "Bernie hits better when he fields"... ummm right.

Torre puts A-rod 8th?!?!? I mean if the guy thinks he stinks and therefore can't hit, drop him to the 8 spot. That'll boost his confidence.

Benching Sheff (righty) game 3 against Rogers (lefty) and Giambi (lefty) game 4 against Bonderman (righty)? I mean that's like some mistake most high school coaches don't make.

The bottom line is that managers don't have to do much (unless you're in the NL and you have to pull that tricky double switch) and what he does have to do he screws up and he has the best players.

So if you don't fire him now what on earth gets this guy fired? Does he have to drive around the parking lot with a world series trophy hanging from his bumper?

GuyInTheCorner said...

To clarify a little...

That quote was by me in the comments section of this blog and is still true.

The only difference is that now we know that he also sucks at managing a bullpen.

Fire Torre? What did he do different this time? Lose? No, he's been at that for 7 years now.

So it has to be something new and I just don't know what that would be.

Sparty said...

they have been given their due. but it is more of a story about the 200million dollar team that lost. people say the yanks loss because they couldn't pitch, exactly. they couldn't matchup with the quality of the Indians pitching. Thats why they loss. how is that not credit to the Indians?

Its obvious that the Yanks were outplayed, we all know that. You cannot discuss a teams successful win like you can disect how a team loss.

wolverine425 said...

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sick of the East Coast Bias in the media, but it is what it is...Tigers fan here...we had a good season, but not good enough missing the playoffs and all...and Leyland got an EXTENSION...Cleveland is hands down the 1a of the AL as Boston is the #1...I am rooting for Cleveland as a fan of the AL Central...the Red Sox are soooo 2004...start crediting teams for wins instead of focusing on the Yanks for losing...Indians in 7, Rockies in 6...and oh yeah, Hart is the Heisman favorite at this point, anyone who has watched Michigan (yak.) play this year will know that without Hart we have 2 wins...at most...Go Blue, Go Tribe

Sparty said...

I am not understanding the whole Indians are not getting credit for winning thing? Do all the Cleveland fans want every writer, blogger and commenter to say. Congrats Indians for winning. You have awesome pitching, timely hitting and a brilliant manager? What is there to talk about after that? The subplots are all Yanks. Arod, Torre, Pitching, Steinbrenner, Cashman, the FA's Posada, Rivera, Pettitte. Trust me, the Indians will get all the attention in another day to set up the ALCS, STOP WHINING!

Jen said...

sparty~ How can anyone enjoy the win when all of the media hype is about the loser Yankees? Is Torre gone? Is PAyRod gone? Is Pettite gone? Was this Clemens' last game? And on and on and on and on and on...

Like joey said, it will be nice to not have to listen to Caray say "And here come the Yankees!" Eff that. There GO the Yankees. Please clean out your lockers and have a nice fall.

Sparty said...

unless the cleveland media is only covering the Yankees, then I don't get the complaining.

Jen said...

Whoops, my post was a little late after others had made the same point.

Jen said...

It's the national media that will give credit to the Tribe with a few words of "great pitching", "clutch hitting" and then it goes into a 10 minute discussion about the future of the Yanks. ZZZZZZZ

They can't help that they are the team from the highest market with the most publicity, yada, yada, yada.

Ok, I'm done with this discussion.

GO TRIBE!!!!!

marcomarco said...

I love the salary/betrayal nicknames:

pAyrod
Money Ramirez
Johnny Demon
Brian Cashman

others?

Geoff said...

Jen, we went through the same thing last year when the Tigers beat the Yankees. 2 minutes of talking about the Tigers followed by 20 minutes of hearing about what the Yankees did wrong or whatever. If it is any consolation that seems to die down once the league championship series starts (though poor you, even if the Tribe win we'll have to hear about what Boston did wrong).

Sparty said...

and when the Tigers loss to the Cards, there was more talk about the tigers implosion than the Cards.

marcomarco said...

Not gonna happen, so don't worry.

Go Sox.

ToddTheJackass said...

Out of curiosity, what more can there be said about the Indians than that they outclassed the Yankees, they got the timely hits, their bullpen got very key outs, their starting pitching was phenomenal, etc.

I mean, that is a lot less fun than to kick dirt into the grave of the Yankees, right?

And while we're at it, what the fuck was up with those Rally Racquets that they had in Anaheim? And people wonder why we don't give them pro football back...

wolverine425 said...

sparty -- that was the first time in 15 years people were talking about the Tigers. So, the fact that they imploded to a CRAP team in the Cards, I think it was justified...even though most people weren't even paying attention to baseball since the Stankees or the Sawx weren't in the World Series...

eileen said...

I agree with the Indians fans who are saying that their team hasn't been praised enough, and everyone is focusing on the Yankees losing. Yeah, the Yankees had a late-season surge, but they haven't looked great all season, and their pitching was an obvious weakness.

Cleveland looked great during the series...enough to make this Red Sox fan a bit nervous.

Oh, here's a great Halloween costume idea: Joba Chamberlain covered in flies.

Sparty said...

Notre Dame Football, The Cowboys, The Yankees, and Duke Basketball, are all media story darlings, deal with it.

CMFost said...

somebody needs to tell Joba to shower regularly and maybe the flies would of left him alone.

marcomarco said...

Personally, I think having Jim Kelly and Thurman Thomas on the sidelines was the kiss of death for the Bills last night.

Moments before the "strangest 5 minutes I've ever seen in football", there was a sideline interview with Thomas, describing how sweet it was to get into the Hall of Fame with a win against the Cowboys.

D'oh.

marcomarco said...

Oh, and that was the most challenging time in recent memory for remote flipping. Yankee bottom of the 9th vs the last 2 minutes Boys-Bills.

I really need PiP.

Tito Sanchez said...

I could not post over the weekend? Was something wrong with the interweb?

CMFost said...

wow no posting for 3 days and we are flying, 100 posts before 2:30 PM

Mark said...

I'm a baseball fan because of Don Mattingly and even I'm able to point the finger at him for all of the Yankee failures of the past few years. The Curse of Donnie Baseball lives on.

CMFost said...

let's face it the indians are the better team and the yankees just are not a championship caliber team, they might be offensively but not pitching or defensively and that is more important when it comes to winning championships.

Here is how I see the ALCS Going:
Red Sox in 4

Beckett beats CC in Game 1
Schilling beats Carmona in Game 2
Dice-K beats Westbrook in game 3
Lester/Wakefield beat CC in game 4

Sparty said...

wow cmfost, not being too much of a homer with your pick huh?

ROGER said...

why does everyone keep saying "Torre" hasnt won the championship since 2000. Torre doesnt go out on the field to bat and play defense. He puts the best players that Stienbrenner has bought on the field to play. All the money spent for A-Rod, Clemons, Mussina, Wright and Pavano was money poured down the drain. Buy Torre some decent pitching and bats that can deal with the post season and he will win.

CMFost said...

is this guy kidding he still has tebow and mcfadden 1 and 2 on his heisman ballot



check it out

ROGER said...

As I remember last night A-Rod struck out twice with the bases loaded and in Cleveland with two on in the 2-1 game. How is that Joe Torre's fault.

CMFost said...

why does everyone keep saying "Torre" hasnt won the championship since 2000.

Yes a manager does not go out on the field and play but his decision about pitching, defense and situational hitting can win and lose a team a game. And we all know that Torre is horrible at managing a bullpen and some of his defensive decision have been suspect.

Sparty said...

The Pavano thing was a freaking thing, just crazy how often he got hurt. but Jaret Wright was just dumb. Steinbrenner had a hard on for him since the 97 ALDS.

CMFost said...

sparty yes it is some what homerish my pick but I just think the Red Sox are a better team and I think that the pitching match ups favor the red sox, the red sox line up is a little better and I think the red sox are far better defensively

CMFost said...

NLCS Prediction:
D'Backs in 6

If the D'Backs and Red Sox meet in the World Series does anyone know if brothers have ever played against each other in a world series?

Sparty said...

Again, the knock on Torre with his bullpen is way overstated. His starters have been terrible, they do not eat up innings. The last few years it has been so difficult to get even 6 innings out of guys. No one was ripping Torre apart for putting Nelson, Stanton Rivera out for 3 years straight. Or going with Rivera for 7 and 8 and Wetteland for 9th back in 96. It was until 04 when his starters were becoming less effective that it put a strain on the bullpen.

ToddTheJackass said...

CM, that might be a case of Dan-worthy homerism there. I have a weird feeling we'll see Indians in 6.

And Roger, you are correct to a certain extent, but very wrong about "buying" good pitching. Much of the reason the Yankees won all those years was from developing their own pitching (Pettite, Mariano, etc). That's what they have not been able to do until the last year +. They've been spending too much money on pitching (Kevin Brown, Wright, Pavano, Clemens, Igawa and Mussina this year). What pitching could they have bought? Those guys were pretty much the best pitchers available, so buying pitchers does not always work out.

ToddTheJackass said...

Sparty, you are correct that no one faulted Joe Torre for using Nelson, Stanton, Wettland, Rivera, etc. for all of those years... the problem is the way he overuses those guys (not to mention Tanyon Sturtze, Scott Proctor, Tom Gordon, and Pual Quantrill). The way he overused those guys in the regular seasons recently has been especially harmful, as they all were much less effective come October. It's more of a longevity issue than anything.

The other argument is that runs corrollary to that is that Torre doesn't trust enough young guys, which has the problem that it makes it difficult to develop future arms, unless they are elite arms like Joba.

toddthesecond said...

Sparty, to clarify on my original post... I wasn't saying Yankee FANS are short-changing the Tribe. They're either being quiet, acknowledging that they lost, or talking about their team. The point was that the national media is covering the wrong team for the wrong reasons here. You might be right that tomorrow things will change a day removed, but given who we're playing, I doubt it...

Anyway, just wanted to clarify that Yankees fans are not the problem. At least not today... ;-)

Big D said...

If anybody's interested, my two cents on the postseason, Joe Torre, and other stuff.

It's just too much to put into one comment here.

Sparty said...

Yeah, but Todd, those guys would have never been overused if he wasn't trotting out 3 guys everynight who could barely get through 5 innings. he had no choice.

ToddTheJackass said...

Agreed Sparty, that's the problem with "buying" pitchers, in that for the most part you're buying veterans who can't pitch into games as long guys in their mid 20s.

I do find it funny that if you would've looked at both the Indians and Red Sox before the year started, you'd have pointed to lack of a good bullpen as being each team's weakness. Keith Foulke and Joel Pineiro were supposed to be each team's closers entering spring training. Funny how things work out, eh?

Sparty said...

Well, my fear is that George will take the reigns away from Cashman who has started something good this season with the young guys and spend retarded amounts of money on guys that are worthless.

RyanC said...

How many more wins and touchdowns does Rashard Mendanhall have to accumulate before he even gets a mention in the Hesiman race? He happens to have more ypc and tds than Hart in SIXTY-FIVE fewer carries and 53 fewer touches. IMO he's easilly in the top ten and probaly the top five already. I guess we'll see next Saturday who the real Big-Ten hesiman candidate is.

Sparty said...

What week does the NFL flex schedule begin?

CMFost said...

Sparty I think week 7 or 8

Sparty said...

I like the flex, but damn it messes me up as a season ticket holder for the G-Men.

TBender said...

CMFost,
Not sure if it was the only time, but in 1964 was Boyer v Boyer.


And Cleveland in 6. A new kind of Grady induced pain for Boston.

Grant said...

I can't believe no one has mentioned this:

The Yankees don't spend $25 million a year on A-Rod. The Rangers pay like $10 million/year of that.

Not only is he the best player in baseball, the Yankees pay less a year for him than the Cubs pay for Soriano, a good but far inferior player. As long as he plays for them the Yankees get that money. Even if they have to pay him more annually they still get the money (at least as I understand it). This is absolutely crucial. A-Rod at $15 million/year is a bargain.

At his actual contracted rate of $25 million he's still worth it for the Yankees (and the Red Sox and maybe a couple other teams with mega payrolls), anyway, but with that discount they have a big incentive to keep him.

Eagle in Brighton said...

Matt Ryan has to be top 3 on anyones Heisman board.