Tuesday, November 28, 2006

Tuesday 11/28 A.M. Quickie:
Mike, Mac, Magic, Manny, More

The Top Stories on the Radar This A.M.:

*Should the Falcons trade Vick!
*McGwire WON'T make Hall in '07!
*How low has Brett Favre sunk!
*Are the Magic the NBA's best!
*Are the Sox crazy to trade Manny!

Vick's Dirty Bird, Day 2: He says he's sorry and – really – the hubbub over the gesture itself is overblown. But what's not overblown is that this incident symbolizes his fractured relationship with fans and begs the question: Is it time for the Falcons and Vick to part ways?

Here's the crux of the debate: As a fan, would you rather win a Super Bowl or get to watch arguably the most exciting player in the league every week?

Because the Falcons won't win a Super Bowl with Vick as QB. On the other hand, he is the city's greatest sports icon and one of those rare athletes who could do something ridiculous on any given play.

But that makes him Vince Carter or Allen Iverson or Ken Griffey (in his prime): Individually brilliant but highly unlikely to actually lead their team to a championship. It's not a bad strategy to focus on putting asses in seats -- but at the cost of a title?

McGwire/Hall a Non-Starter? He's got virtually no chance at induction this year if the AP's research is right. They polled 20 percent of all voters; only 25 percent of those said they would vote for McGwire's entry into the Hall. That seems statistically significant enough to suggest that he's got no shot in '07. (But will they continue to reject him annually or is this some sort of first-year punishment?)

Seahawks beat Packers in Seattle snow: You would think that the Packers would have the edge in the snow, particularly given that it was Seattle's first home game ever in the snow. Alas, it's yet another symbol that Brett Favre – who used to slay in those conditions – is long over the hill. Meanwhile, get Shaun Alexander into a cold-weather city: He had a season-high 201 yards churning in the snow-slop.

Magic beat Jazz in Utah: Raise your hand if you predicted the Magic and the Jazz to have the best records in their respective conferences nearly a month into the NBA season. No one? Exactly. Meanwhile, the Magic did it by beating the Jazz at their own game: Rebounding. Orlando outrebounded the Jazz (who lead the NBA in rebounding margin) by 43-36. Dwight Howard -- my pick for first-month MVP -- continued to dominate (21 pts, 16 reb). But letting preps turn pro is SO bad for the game...

Manny being... moved? I know Manny has wanted out of Boston for years, but who else (particularly Red Sox fans) can't see a good outcome for the team's offense if they trade Manny away (rumored to the NL)? JD Drew had a fine year, but – come on – he's no Manny. And David Ortiz will feel that directly.

More Quick Points:

So Eli hates Plax? He joins the rest of us. Between drafting Manning and signing Burress as a free agent, is there a more pitiable GM than NYG's Ernie Accorsi? Don't let the door hit you on the way out to retirement.

Cowboys cut Vanderjerkoff: But only after giving him a $2.5 million signing bonus. Worst NFL offseason signing of the year?

Jay Cutler will make Broncos fans forget about Jake Plummer before the end of the first quarter next weekend.

Bulls uphold no-headband policy: This could be the stupidest decision of the NBA season. How out of touch does the Bulls management want to be? And to tick off their cornerstone free-agent acquisitions? Mind-boggling.

No one wants the Bama job? Understandable. Spurrier feels like he's got a better shot of winning an SEC title at South Carolina. Saban feels like he has nothing left to prove at the college level. They need to skip the "names" and go for young/aggressive/up-n-coming.

Ohio State has pulled a rare double-double: They are ranked No. 1 in the coaches' football poll and No. 1 in the coaches' basketball poll. (Strangely, OSU hoops got fewer 1st-place votes than UCLA.)

Lost in the McGwire/HOF mess is that there is absolutely no excuse for Ripken and Gwynn not to make the Hall unanimously. But you just KNOW there will be some ass-hat voter who abstains on them.

-- D.S.


Brave Sir Robin said...

Speaking of someone who gets to watch Lebron James every couple nights, give me a championship any day of the week and twice on Sundays. You can always find one player to adore on your championship team, a player you'll like more than the best player in the league (let alone a schmuck who can't play his position).

john (east lansing, mi) said...

I'm apparently too late to find the original story - what the hell is the point of a no-headband policy, to begin with?

Anything that makes any sense?

Why on earth would you stick it to a historically fragile guy you just paid so much cash, all over a stupid policy with no real purpose? You know what happened last year, and Flip didn't even come up with any lousy rules like this one.

sigh... back in that "I almost feel sorry for you, but you got what you had coming to you" Pistons fan zone.

Anonymous said...

I'd say since he's currently out of a job, he should be Mike Van-down-by-the-river, but he DOES have that signing bonus. Maybe it's a pimped out van?

Kevin said...

Yeah, because the Packers' run defense letting Shaun Alexander run silly all over them means Favre sucks and should retire. Excellent analysis there Dan, really...

Can you just not comment on Favre the rest of the year if you're not going to watch the game!?! Until the Packers were down 2 scores (from a BS Roughing the Passer penalty, I might add) Favre played a good game. It's not his fault he had no support from the running game or the defense in the 2nd half. He can only play his position.

By your logic, shouldn't Hasselbeck retire? He had a pretty rotten game too (with better supporting talent)

Matt T said...

Up until now, there has been no way to move Vick because of the revenue he brought into the city/team. People go just to see Vick. Prior to Vick they wouldn't sell out and the games weren't on tv.

This is the first incident where the fans are really starting to turn on him. If this continues, they may actually consider moving him.

I don't think they will/can, I'm not sure what team would be willing to give up enough to get him. And I don't know what's so great about Schaub, a guy who has started ONE game.

I wish the Red Sox would trade Manny to Atlanta for Andruw Jones. That would work on both sides, except for Papi.

Anonymous said...

I forget who it was on TV that said he got.. Vander-jacked-up.

Jon said...

Eli hates Plax? Not good when you start hating your only wide receiver....especially when you're not that good of a QB.

Brave Sir Robin said...

Jason and other haters:
I'm just kinda curious, why do all of you bother reading and commenting if you hate Dan so much? Aren't there better things to do with your time?

Anonymous said...

@brave sir robin

People like jason amount to little more than forum trolls. They act like tools on web forums and blogs because they're anonymous and can say whatever they want without getting punched in the mouth.

Trey (formerly TF) said...

Go Magic!

Can you believe it? Man the weren't really dumb for taking Dwight over Okafor were they ESPN? Dick Vitale?

Joe (Dayton)

CMFost said...

Interesting ESPN.com poll about Hall of Fame Balloting asking the fans who they would vote for, here are the top 10 as of 2 minutes ago.

Which players would get your Hall of Fame vote? (Check all that apply)

86.3% Tony Gwynn:
86.1% Cal Ripken, Jr
52.6% Andre Dawson
40.9% Lee Smith
39.9% Don Mattingly
38.4% Rich Gossage
33.4% Jim Rice
32.8% Mark McGwire
31.6% Bert Blyleven
24.1% Tommy John

Trey (formerly TF) said...

I'll go on a limb, Rich Rodriguez will be the next coach of Alabama. Money Talks.

CMFost said...

actually the last 2 Favre interceptions were typical Favre. The First one was on First and 10 with almost 6 minutes left in the game and there was no reason to try and force the ball down field like and the fact that he completly under thrwe the receiver and the second was a completely bad throw into tirple coverage, so for the person who said Brett;s WR's did not make a play for the ball go watch the game again they were horrible throws. The kind that Favre makes alot.

Steve said...

Regarding the hall of fame, I have just one rule. When in doubt, leave him out. So just Ripken and Gwynn for me.

Natsfan74 said...

It's actually worse for the Giants. They didn't draft Manning -- they drafted Rivers and traded him plus 2 more picks for Manning. Why not use 2 picks to move up one draft position to take an over-rated quarterback with a meddling father who said Eli wouldn't sign for San Diego, which prompted the trade to begin with.

Unknown said...

Yes...because the AP is far more knowledgeable when it comes to voting in polls... lol

What's really cool is the possibility that Ohio State could wind up with the #1 in Football, Men's Bball AND Women's Bball.
Has a trifecta like that happened before?

QB class of 2003:

Roethlisberger (one bad season does not ruin him)
Rivers (though tailing off...but that might be more due to LDT taking off)
Manning (He'll have a 12 year career...only cuz of his name)
Losman (hm...he's in the league right?)

Unknown said...

Hall of Famers


Dawson (sentimental fave)

Anonymous said...

On the Alabama head coaching job. I've got two words for ya --

Romeo Crennel.

Think about how many times an average NFL head coach goes down to the college ranks and dominates. What kind of cred would Romeo bring to Alabama? He'd be an African American head coach in the South, in the SEC, he's got super bowl rings, he's got NFL connections and players absolutely LOVE HIM (you think #55 would be in Cleveland otherwise).

I'm not sure Alabama will call Romeo but they should. Cleveland is stuck in neutral and if the right deal is sent out there I think Romeo and the Browns would happily part ways. I'm just throwing that out there but I wouldn't be surprised if his name comes up a lot when the bowl season ends.

Sheldiz said...

cal ripken is a class act and i hope his induction does not get overshadowed by any of the controversy surrounding other picks this year. a little hometown balmer bias, perhaps.... :)

Mega said...

I propose that any asshat that votes "no" on Gwynn or Ripken should get tossed out of the Hall of Fame voting commitee, to be replaced by...Shanoff? *gasp* Would he dare take the job?

john (east lansing, mi) said...

thirdstringjd, I don't know where you've been for months, but you come back and all of a sudden you have great ideas. I love that, somebody needs to pass the thought process along to the people who should be thinking it.

Anonymous said...

Dan, how exactly is this loss a sign that Favre should get out? The Packers, expected to be a bad team this year, lost a close Monday Night game on the road in the loudest environment in the NFL against a playoff bound Seattle team.

I don't even like Favre, but I don't understand your hatred and constant bickering about him. Is it the fact that the media loves him? You've never really expalined why you take shots at him wherever possible.

CMFost said...

ndyanksfan05 - No on Mattingly as long as Rice and Dawson are not in. Both have far superior overall Offensive numbers and both also have MVP's.

TJ said...

Raise your hand if you predicted the Magic and the Jazz to have the best records in their respective conferences nearly a month into the NBA season.

I would raise my hand half-way for calling the Magic, but honestly I have no idea how anyone was not calling the Magic. Unless it was obvious to everyone but me that the last few weeks of last season were a complete fluke.

Steve said...

Does most consecutive years playing for the Yankees without making the playoffs count as a dumb streak?

CMFost said...

Why do poeple not like Favre? It is pretty simple he may be one of the most overrated QB's in the History of the Game. Is a QB who's career rating is 85.6 really that good?

Sheldiz said...

"some dumb streak"

I will assume that you are referring to cal ripken's streak here.

a dumb streak is "consecutive wins in a dome when its a full moon" or "games won after trailing a home team in the third quarter by ten or more points when the opposing team is above .500 and its raining"

have you ever tried to play 16 seasons of a professional sport without missing a SINGLE game due to injury or sucking?

say what you will about mattingly deserving to get in, and i don't necessarily disagree with you there... but there's no need to detract from other nominees achievements.

Sheldiz said...

first of all, given the state of professional sports today, "not getting hurt and showing up to play" is no small feat.

second of all, its not like he spent 20 years sucking. he played in 19 all star games. he earned a couple MVPs and rookie of the year. he was an all around good player and arguably one of the best shortstops to play the game.

Kevin said...

How is McCarthy the worst signing of the offseason? He has done a faily good job turning the Packers around. Sure, there is work still to be done (i.e. the secondary), but he has coached the team to a better record (thus far) and most of the losses have been very close games. He's doing a good job bringing the young players on the team up right, and he's gotten Favre to buy into his gameplan. I'm not saying he's perfect, but he a big improvement over Mike Sherman.

CMFost said...

second of all, its not like he spent 20 years sucking. he played in 19 all star games.

Because fan voting and other factors he made some of those all star team more by name then actually being an all star but Ripken does deserve to be in the hall of fame for more then just is record streak of consecutive games played.

Stats Speak:
BA- .276 - borderline
HR - 431 - Yes
RBI - 1695 - YEs
Hits - 3184 - Yes
Runs - 1647 - Yes
Doubles - 603 - Yes
BB - 1129 - Yes
OBP - .340 - Yes
Slg. - .447 - borderline

37th all time in HR
20th All time in RBI
31st in Runs Scored
14th all time in hits
13th in Doubles

Sheldiz said...

if players were in or out of the hall of fame based SOLELY on their numbers... pete rose would be in.

that being said, what keeps pete rose out of the HOF is the same premise that should ensure cal ripken's induction. hall of fame selection is not based entirely on RBIs or batting average. its based also on what the player has meant to the sport.

Sheldiz said...

which is exactly my point, nd.

Unknown said...

In that case, no player has meant more to the sport than Pete Rose.


Let Pete in!!

Unknown said...

btw, Pete Rose did play honestly and fairly. More so than most...

it was that little , tiny problem while managing that got him...

Sheldiz said...

haha, rafael. :)

CMFost said...

Here are some stats to back up why mattingly should not be in the Hall of Fame before Ripken, Rice or Dawson

BA -
Mattingly - .307
Rice - .298
Dawson - .279
Ripken - .276

HR -
Dawson - 438
Ripken - 431
Rice - 382
Mattingly - 222

Ripken - 1695
Dawson - 1591
Rice - 1451
Mattingly - 1099

Hits -
Ripken - 3184
Dawson - 2774
Rice - 2452
Mattingly - 2153

Runs Scored -
Ripken - 1647
Dawson - 1373
Rice - 1249
Mattingly - 1007

Jingoist said...

Big Papi - Manny = Barry Bonds. I.e., at least a walk per game average.

Unfortunately, Ortiz won't win any MVP awards for being the most pitched around player in baseball (like Bonds was).

Kevin said...

Why do poeple not like Favre? It is pretty simple he may be one of the most overrated QB's in the History of the Game. Is a QB who's career rating is 85.6 really that good?

Tom Brady: 88.1 career QB rating
Dan Marino: 86.4 career QB rating

Those are two other quarterbacks that enter into the "greatest QB ever" discussion with very similar ratings. To borrow from the posts about Don Mattingly and Cal Ripken Jr., on-field contributions and stats don't make the complete package. Some things, like leadership, don't show up in Favre's stats (or Brady's, etc.)

Anonymous said...

cmfrost I'm with you.

If Mattingly gets serious consideration for the hall there is absolutely NO way that you don't put Jim Rice in. Nobody is going to ever convince me that Mattingly deserves to be in Cooperstown over Jim Rice.

CMFost said...

The First Player that should be a unanimous first ballot hall of famer(but he will not since someone will leave him off the ballot once he eligible) should be ROGER CLEMENS. Ripken and Gwynn to not come up to the level of achievement that Roger has thus they should not be unanimously voted in but they should be definetly be in along with Dawson, Lee Smith and Jim Rice.

NA said...

Mattingly should not be in the HOF. He had a few HOF seasons, but sadly, injuries kept him from keeping the years necessary to get him in. In 1988 he seemed like a lock to get in. But hiss tats from 1989 just did him in.
He's not a HOFer he's just another Hall Of Very Good... (Just like Kirby Puckett, but that's another story).
I agree witht the idea, if there's a debate, they probably shouldn't be in.

CMFost said...

Ok, Favre is a good QB but he is not one of the top 5 ever. He makes to many stupid mistakes and what has he ever really done other then winning one super bowl in 15 years which really is not that much of an achievement considering that Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have been super bowl winning QB's

CMFost said...

but ndyank that is how you judge a person worthyness to be in the hall of fame. You have to look at there whole career and unfortunately for mattingly is did not have the longevity or the numbers to be a hall of famer. If I was a voter for the Hall my ballott would be:

Lee Smith

jhawkjjm said...

This is actually kind of ironic. You can't look only at Farve's QB rating. I have no strong feelings for the guy either way, but he's started 250 (ish?) straight games...he's the CAL RIPKEN of football!

I don't think there's any doubt that Favre is a Hall of Famer, he has something that Marino and Peyton don't have... championships. I haven't seen enough of him this year to say one way or the other whether he should hang it up or not. I thought he should have hung it up after last year.

Sheldiz said...

geoff, i'll definitely grant you the premise that Ripken should not be a 100% in. I get that. We'll have to agree to disagree on the meaning of the streak. I think there are a couple hundred pro baseball players out there that might take issue with your analysis of the physical aspect of their sport.

A.C. Green? My brain doesn't speak NBA, sorry :)

Brave Sir Robin said...

People that don't belong on that list:
Kelly, Moon, Naimath, Bradshaw, and Aikman.

Favre's a lot better than all of those guys, as are the rest of the people on your list.

He's better than Manning because Manning's losing bitch.

I put Favre definitely above Young because he never had Jerry Rice to throw to.

Marino never won anything and wasn't a very good leader on those teams.

Elway and Favre are really close in my opinion. I like Favre better, but that has a lot to do with Elway ramming the Browns in the ass repeatedly.

I like Brady, but I don't know if I'd put him in the all-time greats. Despite his Super Bowls, I still think Montana was better

I can't really judge the rest of the people on the list because I wasn't alive to see them play and I don't care enough to really look up the numbers.

Brave Sir Robin said...

Yes, because no one ever takes painkillers in professional sports. What the hell is wrong with you? Just because Favre had a major problem with them doesn't mean taht's the only way he managed to keep the streak going. Should we just rule anyone who receives a cortisone shot as not having played a game?

CMFost said...

personally I think Favre's Streak is more impressive then Ripken's in shear terms that Favre plays a physical sport though Favre's Streak is not a NFL Record. The NFL Record for Consecutive games excluding Kickers is by Jim Marshall - DE - Cleveland Browns 1960 and Minnesota Vikings 1961-1979 - for 282 Games which is extermly impressive considering how much of a physical pound a DE takes during a game.

Anonymous said...


Comparing raw numbers is only telling half the story. Ripken was a SS, a historically weak hitting position. Pitting his numbers against Mattingly makes Mattingly look that much worse.

Ripken was one of the greatest SS's to ever play, based on offense and above average defense for most of his career. Mattingly was a great defensive 1B, and an "average" guy w/ middling power. Two hundred something HRs does not a HoF 1B make, especially since he played in the '80s and not the '10s.

Anonymous said...

Hey Dan,

Can we at least give Bama a day to find a coach before you say no one wants the job!?! Your examples were Spurrier and Saban and it's not like anyone thought for a second they would get either and there has been no evidence that Bama wanted or had contacted either. So can we relax on the "No one wants the Bama job" talk.

Jen said...

Eli Manning is a TOOL. Power Tool. Black and Decker.
I was so fired up when he said he didn't want to go to SD if they drafted him. I was hoping that all of the teams would say "Ok then, BUH-BYE!" but of course, the name will forever carry him and he'll keep making money being a crappy QB. Now, I know Elway said he didn't want to go to the Colts (I think??) but I wasn't paying attention to the draft back in the 80's, so I don't care what he did then, but Eli Manning is a total dork who is so lucky his crazy-suit-wearing dad was a professional QB before him.

I think Cal and Tony deserve to get into the HOF. I don't agree with Pete being denied either.

Go Buckeyes! That trifecta would be sweet. The basketball season has just begun, so I'll be happy when they are still at the top come March Madness.

ToddTheJackass said...

Why in the hell would we trade Manny? I just don't get it.

The only explanation I can come up with is that there's something the Red Sox doctors know that we don't, or that he really did in effect quit on the team last year, and said so to teammates.

People keep saying that his trade value might never be higher, but doesn't that mean that his "keep" value is just as high? I mean J.D. Drew is a good player, but he doesn't have anywhere near the power or consistency that Manny has.

The names I keep hearing too in trade possibilities aren't great either. At least not in the category of anything to get excited over. I sincerely doubt the Giants would give us Matt Cain, the Angels don't appear interested, and unless the Dodgers offer James Loney plus either Chad Billingsley or Jonathan Broxton, I don't see much to get excited about there either.

I just don't get it.

-Todd (Boston)

CMFost said...

Brady – the jury is out – let’s see 3-4 more excellent years first. He’s not in Favre’s league yet, but he could be one day.

If you made the arguement the Favre has never had anyone in the skill position then what do you make of Brady. Since he has been the Patriots starter he has 1 WR with 100 Catches in a Season and 1 WR with 1000+ yards in a season but yet he still lead his team to 3 Super Bowl Championships.

Yet Brady is not in Favre's league??

Just as a comparsion a took a look at Favre's first 5 seasons as a starter versus Brady.

Completion %
Favre - 62.0%
Brady - 61.9%

Favre - 18,724
Brady - 18,035

Favre - 147
Brady - 123

Favre - 77
Brady - 66

Super Bowls
Favre - 1
Brady - 3

CMFost said...

Just to add to the Brady vs. Favre Comparision.

In Brady first 5+ Season including this year he has never had more TD's then INT's, Favre had 2 Season in is first 6 with more INT's then TD's

Mikepcfl said...

Not to go all Bill James on you. But in most Win Share, average win share/season and runs created above average per position, Cal Ripken is usually 6th for shortstops of all time in each category. Mattingly is usually in the 20s for most first baseman rankings. When you combine everything, Ripken is a slam dunk first-ballot nominee.

WuzUpG said...

Hey, no mention of the Warriors beating the once undefeated Road Warriors, aka the Spurs, with out Boom Dizzle (B.Diddy to some) and Pietrus. However, the new fantasy stud, Biedrins, had 18 pts., 15 rebs., 4 asts., and 6 blks!

Not to mention that they blew up the Jazz by 13 this past Sat.

The Warriors are 2nd in the division and 7th in the conference. The 12-year playoff drought might be over.

Anonymous said...

Hey, I've been calling for Favre to retire, and I hate people who make excuses for him.

But he actually had a good game. Their defense is legitimate.

It's not an awesome performance or anything, either, but he shouldn't be called out just because he lost on Monday Night to a Super Bowl contender.

As for the all-time argument for Favre? Iron-clad. Mr. Football, as far as I'm concerned, he won a couple, he had a lot of memorable comebacks and gutsy scrambles. My generation's Elway.

btw, anyone notice that JP Losman has similar stats to Favre with very similar help (one good WR, Favre has better RB, better O-line)? Funny how history colors everything.

Unknown said...

Did Montana play with the best...or did he make a slew of them into great players?
And Young riding the bench is a bad argument...he was behind teh best QB of all time, Montana. Favre would have ridden the bench too.

Jon said...

I was a huge Mattingly fan, but he is definitely not a true Hall of Fame guy. His back cost him his ticket to Cooperstown....I do still think it is possible to see him get in though because the standards have dropped over the years.

As for Ripken's streak, it is meaningless. The guy should have had a day off several times during it and yes it was due to sucking. And let's not forget about the O's cancelling a game due to a "power outage" when Cal wouldn't play after finding his wife in bed with Costner. Anyway, he is a Hall of Famer with or without the streak though. He led the way for the bigger, more offensive shortstops.

Jon said...

On a basketball note, it's nice to see Randy Foye finally getting some playing time. Hopefully that huge 4th quarter he had over the weekend woke his dumb ass coach up.

Mike James is no Randy Foye.

Sheldiz said...

i'll gloss over the "meaningless streak" comment because i love me some randy foye!

and i agree with whomever above me said that the discussions today are both interesting and civil.

good work team.

Sheldiz said...


regarding kelly ripken and kevin costner.

Steve said...

Hey Jen, any chance you could get your Browns to trade Kellen Winslow to the Giants for draft picks so that we could have the 3 biggest tools in the universe all on the same team? They would need a bigger tool shed to hold the likes of Manning, Shockey and Winslow.

CMFost said...

This is rather civil today, must not be many of those trouble trolls around.

As for today's debates

Hall of Fame: Ripken and Gwynn defintly in but not with 100% of the vote neither them deserve it.

QB's: Favre is one of the top 20 of all time but I do think people tend to overrate him.

NBA - I know nothing about the NBA

College Basketball - Talk to me in March

Manny- either trade him and get over with or do not trade him do not stretch it out like last time, it only hurts the team..

NA said...

The painkiller arugment is beyond stupid.
Every player for decades has been getting pain killers. Favre's addiction had to do with painkillers when he wasn't playing and in the offseason. It's like takling about LT's stats not being as impressive because he did coke.

Marcus T said...

Why the random Griffey dig? His 1.026 OPS in 59 post-season at bats not good enough for you?

As for Plax, I will gladly take him back in Pittsburgh. In his rookie season, Big Ben developed a nice chemistry with him. Then he got hurt down the stretch and Ben struggled a bit, partly because of it.

Anonymous said...

Using Super Bowl wins as a measuring stick for how good a quarterback plays is DUMB. It is a team game, with too much left to other factors.

Bradshaw? He has admitted himself that Favre is the best to ever play the game. Winning 4 titles on the backs of other HOF'ers doesn't mean much to me. Reggie White is the only other possible HOF'er that has played with Favre that I can think of.

Aikman was ok, but with that defense, offensive line, receivers, and of course Emmitt Smith, he didn't have to do much of anything.

Naimath? Are you kidding? He pulled one upset, and because he had the stupidity to "guarantee" it, he is in the hall of fame. He shouldn't even be mentioned in Favre's company.

All of these guys were good in their own way. I look at it like this: replace Favre with Brady (or Manning, or whoever). Brady would be playing exactly like Favre if he was on the toilet of a team that the Packers have. Same with Manning. Are they good? Undoubtably. But put them in Favre's place, and everyone would be saying how "over the hill" they are.

Favre won 3 straight MVPs too. Along with being at the top of the list in touchdowns and wins in NFL history, how can anyone say he is overrated? Is he as good as he was in 1996? No. Does he get a handjob from the media? Sure. But he still belongs on an all time top 5 list, if not top 3 or best ever.

Kevin said...

Regarding Favre's painkillers:

I don't think it is a coincidence that as soon as Favre admitted his addiction and sought help (summer of 1996), he immediately won the Super Bowl and then made it to the next, and strung together 3 straight NFL MVP awards. I wonder how good he could've been those first couple years had it not been for the painkillers. Maybe another Super Bowl victory, maybe another MVP or two...

Kevin said...

The point is talking about Brett Favre and painkillers is NOT the same as everybody else if you're talking about it in the context of the streak, "iron man", etc. Which is why I don't acknowledge that as a reason why he is one of the "greats."

Fine, then take 60 games off his start streak, since he was addicted for up to that many games. He gave up his addiction OVER TEN YEARS AGO. That means the streak is "untainted", if that's how you want to look at it, for 160+ games. Still is the top streak among QBs...still makes him an ironman!

marcomarco said...

- The Yankees have never won a title while Mattingly was in the dugout. As a player '82-'95 or as a coach '03-present. They won the year after he retired. Irony? Whatever, I think it's hilarious.

- I don't want to see Manny in another uniform, but he may have completely worn out his welcome when he took vacation time last September.

- I had VanderJ on my Fantasy team, dammit.

- Someone tried to trade me Eli for Bush, i flatly refused. Eli sucks.

Brave Sir Robin said...

@ Dave
If you read my post, I said that I couldn't judge the rest because I didn't see them play. I didn't dismiss them. Also, I don't put Favre in as number one. I'm just saying your list needed to be pruned down to a little more realistic list of comparable quarterbacks.

Moon was a BS hall of fame quarterback. He wracked up huge numbers in excessively pass happy schemes.

Naimath is famous because he mouthed off and backed it up. He got in the hall of fame based off Super Bowl III. Broadway Joe really was quite overrated.

Kelly also LOST 4 Super Bowls. Talk about not being able to win the big one.

Aikman had Emmitt Smith and merely had to not throw tons of picks to win those Super Bowls. Also, having Michael Irvin to throw to helps a helluvalot.

Terry Bradshaw only had 215 TD's or something like that and 211 picks. Those are not hall of fame numbers. He's in the hall of fame because he was teh face of the Steelers along with Mean Joe Greene. Yeah, he won four Super Bowls and that also probably gave him the nudge into the hall of fame, but he's not in Favre's league as far as being a quarterback.

As for Young, what you're telling me is throwing to Jerry Rice in his prime had nothing to do with his numbers being as good as they were. That's just wrong. Having to plan for Rice just ruins defenses, making it even easier to get other guys open. I'm not dismissing Young as a good quarterback, I'm just saying I think Favre's better because he has better numbers without having the best wide receiver ever to throw to.

And I said what I did about liking Favre only because I was explaining why I would take him over Elway in a toss up. I don't really think one is that much better than the other, nor did I say that they were the 1 and 2 quarterbacks ever. Elway was just the last quarterback I could judge. The rest were before my time.

Brave Sir Robin said...

Relatedly, I hadn't read Eric's post which I ended repeating quite a bit. Sorry about that.

Aitch said...

First I do want to commend everyone who is leaving comments on this thread for not only great information and interesting reads, but also for the amount of civility being displayed. (not a single "you're an idiot" or anything similar has been thrown around. Kudos to you all.

As far as Favre goes, I think he like most athletes today get a little more hype due to instant history. I think it is impossible to judge someone's body of work until it is complete. Therefore, the jury is still out on Favre, Brady, Manning and anyone else who is still lacing 'em up every Sunday. When all is said and done, I think Favre is a hall of famer, as I think Brady and Peyton will be as well. I personally wouldn't rank Favre in my top 3, but I'll listen to the arguement. Either way he is a great QB, and I think a majority of NFL teams would take him under center every week if given the chance, with the exception a few of the top tier teams with solid QB situations.

I think the painkiller reference is irrelevant. Painkillers are not by any means a performance enhancer, and every pro athlete uses pain killers to a certain degree. Do you think my boy Schilling would have pitched game 6 of the '04 ALCS without some serious pain meds? Does that diminish what he accomplished in that game, the guts and character it took to fight through that pain? of course not, nor should it diminish Favre's truly amazing ironman streak.

Ripken is definitely a hall of famer. his streak was also amazing, though I do have to agree with other posters that in the final years of the streak, there were times where Cal was hurting the Orioles by being out there, but overall you can't deny his accomplishments either. You can say that his yearly numbers weren't mind boggling, but you have to look at the overall body of work, and that gets him in on the first try in my opinion.

Mattingly was without a doubt a great player and it sucks that his back cost him a chance at the hall, or at least put it in serious doubt. But I think that the fact that he didn't have great power numbers while playing what has become known as a power position will definitely hurt him.

And Pete Rose should be in the Hall for what he accomplished on the field, but his bust should have the disclaimer that he was banned from Baseball for gambling while he was a manager. To exclude him and his numbers from the hall is basically the 800ld gorilla in the room that no one wants to talk about. Ignoring Rose's numbers doesn't make him go away. He played, he put up sick numbers, he should be in the hall because he was part of the game. That is what the Hall is meant to be for any sport, a monument to the game's history, good and bad.

Jen said...

Steve said...
Hey Jen, any chance you could get your Browns to trade Kellen Winslow to the Giants for draft picks so that we could have the 3 biggest tools in the universe all on the same team? They would need a bigger tool shed to hold the likes of Manning, Shockey and Winslow.

HAHAHAHA--SO true!!!

Steve, I think Edwards is trying to take over Winslow's top spot as the Browns' Power Tool. We'll send him to the Giants too. Then you'd need an airplane hangar!

Anonymous said...

One more thing about HoF QBs: Kelly ran his own no huddle offense on one of the top scoring offenses of all time. He deserves to be in.

Having a kicker miss an FG is the only thing keeping him from having a ring. Doesn't make him bad.

Anonymous said...

Dan is great, but his Falcons analysis needs some work. See me for Vick/Falcons analysis. I actually watch the games. http://leave-the-man-alone.blogspot.com/search/label/State%20of%20the%20Falcons