Monday, December 04, 2006

Monday 12/04 A.M. Quickie:
BCS Decision: The Morning After

I'm already sick of the BCS griping.

I don't have a problem with pollsters vaulting Florida over Michigan. The case was compelling. The results were unanimous.

I don't think Michigan would have stayed number 2 if they had played their game versus Ohio State on December 2, instead of 2 weeks ago. In fact, I think Florida's margin would have been even more decisive. (Though I do think the Big Ten should move the Michigan-OSU game later in the season to more closely mirror the timing of the other conferences' championship games.)

I don't think it's invalid for voters to have used "Michigan had their chance" as one piece of their criteria; it's as close to a real playoff as college football had this season.

(I do think it's invalid for voters to have used "Michigan wasn't the conference champ" as criteria; in theory, why can't the second-best team in a conference be the second-best team in the country?)

I don't think that Jim Tressel should ever be allowed to vote in the coaches' poll ever again, for opting out this final (and most important) vote of the season.

I don't think that Michigan fans and apologists have much room to gripe after dropping out of the Number 2 spot in all three human polls, including the AP media poll, which presumably has no stake in the outcome beyond getting it right (and maintaining a sense of superiority over the other human polls).

I don't think that everyone should presume that Ohio State will romp over Florida in the title game. As noted on ESPN last night, this Florida team is awfully similar to that gritty 2002 Ohio State champ. Left unsaid was that this Ohio State team is awfully similar to that 2002 Miami runner-up; they looked like an unbeatable juggernaut, too.

I don't think the BCS system works either, but I don't think that the various playoff suggestions I've heard are without their own massive flaws.

(For example, if you thought there was a debate over No. 2, how exactly do you expect to resolve the "Who's Number 4?" debate in a mythical 4-team playoff:

One-loss Louisville from the weak totally underrated Big East? One-loss Wisconsin, with that sorry schedule and a THIRD team from the Big Ten? Two-loss LSU, who didn't even make their own conference title game? Two-loss USC, who up until Saturday night was everyone's consensus Number 2? Or unbeaten Boise State, who – aside from a win over Oregon State – played a sorry non-BCS schedule en route to an unbeaten season?

If you thought a debate over two teams for one title-game spot was insane, try arguing over five teams for one playoff spot. And that's just this year: The problem is that from year to year, there might be no debate -- like last year, when a playoff would have been ludicrous -- or there might be even more teams in the mix.)

Again, I'm not arguing against a playoff. I'm just saying it creates new issues that don't really solve the problems we've got now. "Deciding it on the field" doesn't really fly when you've left 4 arguably worthy teams out of a 4-team playoff field.

Finally, if you want the "Oh, the humanity!" moment of the year in sports, just take a look at some of the ridiculous ballots from the Harris poll. It gives the media a convenient punching bag, but when you look at the voting pool, it's totally random and some ballots are a joke. (FanIQ has some highlights -- or lowlights -- of the human poll balloting.)

Here's the bottom line: It's a broken system, and everyone knows it. It was unfortunate that one arguably worthy team had to be left out. (BTW, Michigan's claim pales in comparison to Auburn's in 2004.) And after a day of massive recriminations today, it'll be time to look forward, not dwell in bitterness, and fans will look ahead to a worthy title game.

-- D.S.

More Quickie takes, including five on the NFL:

(1) Oh, so THAT's what all the Reggie Bush hype was about...

(2) Holy smokes, is Rex Grossman bad...

(3) Has Tom Coughlin been fired yet...?

(4) So much for the Dolphins as a surging would-be playoff team...

(5) I should have had followed my gut about Vince Young in my Friday picks...

More CFB: After Rutgers' loss at West Virginia on Saturday night to sort of taint an otherwise Cinderella season, perhaps Greg Schiano realizes that he'll always have trouble beating Louisville and WVA if he stays with Rutgers, while at Miami, he could own the otherwise soft ACC. When Miami talks with him today, I think he'll listen more closely than he would have last week.

College Hoops: Let's not forget that karma is a boomerang: The same night that Florida made the BCS title game, the defending champ hoops team lost at Florida State. That back-to-back title has never looked like a shakier proposition. Meanwhile, Greg Oden didn't look SO dominating in his debut, but again, it was just a debut. Wait until March. Yikes.

MLB Hot Stove: The annual winter meetings start today, with the top storylines being: (1) Bonds, (2) Manny, (3) Zito, (4) Schmidt.

186 comments:

Benvious said...

DS

I agree with your statements. However, be honest. Would you have written that post if it was Florida getting jobbed?

Kurt said...

Like other people have said before, you are only sick of the BCS griping Shanoff because YOUR team was on the right side. If Florida was left out of the title game you would still be griping about it 6 Wednesdays from now.

Anonymous said...

I don't understand the argument that there can't be a playoff because how do you determine seeding? I mean let us not forget that -- there is already a system in place to determine seeding, the NCAA uses it in every single other one of their sports and divisions except for D-1 Football.

If it's going to be about the BCS conferences then you take the winners of the ACC, Big 12, Big 10, Big East, SEC, and Pac-10. That gives you six teams and then you take the top 2 teams in the country record wise (Michigan and Boise State are in).

Seems like you've got an 8 game playoff schedule right there. It's three weeks of games (which if we started it next weekend would give us a national championship game on or around the day it's already scheduled).

You can keep the other bowl games for the rest of the non playoff teams (almost like the NIT) so that people can still see Notre Dame and WVU, and Auburn and everyone else.

If you want to extend it to a 16 team playoff you do it through records - it's that simple. They do it in EVERY other league so dont say that they can't do it in the D1 Football also because that's crap.

You could even drop the regular season to 10 games (so that nobody has to watch Florida v. Florida Coastal Cosmotology School) and solve everyone's problem with the idea that the playoff would take to long.

You play bowl games during the week - playoff games during Saturday and everyone goes home happy.

Drunken Loo said...

Why would Tressel vote this week? If his vote was the one that made the difference, do you think that would be fair to the team he didn't choose? Everybody would be calling for his head and be asking why he did vote.

Plus by not voting, he made a stronger statement. "I don't care who my team plays, we'll take anybody anytime."

Ed said...

Please, please, please stop asking for a major college football playoff.

In addition to the near impossibility of making a "fair" choice for the fourth or eighth or sixteenth team for a D1 college football playoff, there is the inevitability of the best teams consistently not winning a championship on the field.

The St. Louis Cardinals were not the best team in MLB this year. George Mason put out several teams that should have made the Final Four. In the Division II football playoffs Saturday, tourney favoriteRowan got sheeeellacked.

Tournaments seem fairer than polling, but because any team really can beat any other team in any sport at any time, the outcomes only produce objectively conclusive results some of the time.

Big D said...

Most telling statement on this whole debate...

Right now on tWWL, there's a poll: "Did the BCS get it right?

After over 137,000 votes, it's split 50/50.

We're going to be hearing about this for the next five weeks.

Which begs the question - why the hell are the New Year's Day bowls announced four weeks ahead of time? And even moreso, Why is the National Title game suddenly a full week after the rest of the bowls?

Didn't it used to be like January 2nd or 3rd? Or am I just getting old?

CMFost said...

OSU is good, Florida is good, this is going to be a better game then everyone is thinking. OSU will not cover the 8.5 point spread that is the current line.

Michigan will loses to USC
Louisville rolls against Wake
ND get slaughter in a home game for LSU
Boise St upsets Oklahoma

Brian in Oxford said...

If Michigan had lost to OSU this past week, then no, they wouldn't have stayed #2. But you have to admit, if they had scheduled Central Michigan [or insert your favorite lesser team here] this week and won 62-0, then they wouldn't have been dropped further from the #2 they were at already.

I liked the idea I read in the comments (holy shit, I leave my computer off all weekend, I miss 750 comments) about having Michigan and Florida doing a play-in game to face the Buckeyes. That would actually make sense. I actually like the idea of a playoff, but don't fill up your brackets to have an even number. If only 5 teams are really worthy, then work out a bracket-system with byes afterwards. Some years, it may only be 2 teams (like last year)...some years it could be 3, or 7, or whatever.

Here's an odd thing....if OSU romps and Michigan romps, then Michigan's going to end up at #2 anyways....which is where we thought they should be after all.

CorrND said...

Moving the OSU-Mich game later in the season is a pompous suggestion that those teams will always be the best in the Big 10. Besides, what would you have had them do this season? Play their 2nd to last game on Nov 11th and wait 2 weeks so they could play each other on the last weekend of the season?

Anonymous said...

ed -

so your alternative is the status quo? that people just "decide" who the best team(s) is(are)? and really, when there are more than 2 teams deserving for a shot at the national championship is where we are now. how elitist and pompous for anyone to think they know who the best teams are. funny, every other sport on every other level determines a champion on the field of play. yet not d-1 college football? people like you hold the sport back

ChrTh said...


As noted on ESPN last night, this Florida team is awfully similar to that gritty 2002 Ohio State champ. Left unsaid was that this Ohio State team is awfully similar to that 2002 Miami runner-up; they looked like an unbeatable juggernaut, too.


One huge difference that so many people are forgetting: OSU was coached by Jim Tressel then, and he's coached by them now. UM was coached by Larry Coker, who's now looking for a job. While I know Tressel isn't a genius like Charlie Weis, does anyone honestly think Tressel would allow history to repeat itself?

CMFost said...

Ed,

Here is the deal at least if there is a playoff who plays for the national championship is settled on the field and not by voters and computers. It is time for a 16 team playoff just like the other NCAA divisions have. Just like any other playoff give the higher seed the home field advantage until the finals.

the old arguement that they would miss to many classes or play to many game just an excuse. How many classes do you miss if you fly to a site friday night and then fly home saturday night after the game. And if you think it is too many games drop at least one regular season game from the schedule.

Use the current BCS ranking system to determine the top 16 teams and just get it done. It works in the other division it can work in D-1.

Settle the arguement on the field!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ChrTh said...


Moving the OSU-Mich game later in the season is a pompous suggestion that those teams will always be the best in the Big 10.


I don't think that's what Dan meant. I think he meant the Big 10 should stagger their schedule (no one had a bye week during conference play this year) so that the Big 10's final slate of games should take place closer to the end of the season for the conferences with championships.

The big problem with this idea is Iowa-Iowa State. Obviously it can't be the last weekend of the year because ISU could be playing in their championship.

Geoff-Detroit said...

The problem I have with this game is that I don't think the voters did what they are supposed to do... pick the best two teams to be in the title game. If they honestly think Florida is #2 than that is one thing. But they were too swayed by the "Oh they didn't win their conference" and "Oh they already had their shot". Those things aren't supposed to factor into the decision. The BCS had an opportunity to say "Hey, hey, hey... if you can't win your conference than you can't compete for the NC." They chose not to and so the argument that Michigan didn't win the Big 10 is irrelevant.

I don't really care that Michigan won't be allowed to compete for the Mythical National Championship. Hard to get worked up a system that randomly rewards a team with a championship shot just because they don't want to see a game twice. We would really be better just going back to the conference tie-in's for bowl games then vote on a national champion after that. It is no less arbitrary than the BCS system.

ChrTh said...


I'm already sick of the BCS griping.


Um, they why did you do another post about it? Talking about it isn't going to make it go away.

Anonymous said...

chrth -

my guess is that you are either an osu or um or big-10 homer, but i find it funny that you rip larry coker for his coaching job in that 2002 title game. as far as i can remember, there was no talk of coker being outcoached in that game, and miami actually played pretty well. losing mcgahee really hurt them and let's not forget the pass interference call. i have nothing bad to say about tressel, and i know he won't take the gators lightly - but if you think he will out coach urban meyer, think again. i see a tight game.

rafael said...

1-loss teams can't gripe.

My only complaint are the voters...like the jerk-off who voted Florida #1. Seriously?!?! Ridiculous

People drawing parallels to the OSU/Miami title are off, though. These are completely different teams. I know you think Ken Dorsey = Troy Smith...but that's just silly. Miami had a lot of skill weapons but a 'leader' at QB. Ohio State has a lot of skill weapons AND a skilled stud at QB.

The biggest difference in the game? Coaching. Meyer is not anywhere near Tressel. His offense is nothing new either to Tressel.

The Gator D is good, no doubt. Nelson will take Ginn away. But as we've learned, that isn't enough to slow down Ohio State. OSU will score enough to win.

Ohio State 24
Florida 13

CMFost said...

With OSU and Florida good in college hoops, does anyone know if the same 2 teams ever played in the National championship game in Football and hoops in the calendar season.

Kid Keith said...

This is unreal. I never thought I would see the day this happened to one of the most storied football programs ever. A couple questions; why is the SEC the best conference when two of the top two teams in the nation are in the Big 10? That seems like a pretty strong conference to me. Two is; this happened a few years ago to Auburn only everyone was saying how Auburn couldn't jump an idle team! What's that? Did the rules change? This whole mess is really bad for college football. Why does everyone talk about "Oh that would be a great old school match-up?" Who cares? This is lame and what happens when Florida gets toasted and then noone will be accountable for this garbage? Tressel is an absolute coward for his non vote, seriously what at tool. Urban is a whiney baby and congrats it worked. Michigan was ranked ahead of Florida all year and suddenly in the last two weeks that has changed for obviously no reason because Michigan hasn't played. Evn when USC jumped us I was on fire. They beat the same team by less AT HOME! I can't say enough about this and maybe when Florida gets burnt up you may not care Shanoff but the rest of the nation will know who should be at that game. This is an outrage and I will never forget it, just like noone has forgotten about the last time a "vote" jobbed us out of a big game. Shanoff sucks.

rafael said...

I do think its funny that Gator fans have sweet visions of Tebow running over OSU defenders.

I know that having bruising backs is a novel idea in the SEC... but that's the usual in the B10.

ChrTh said...

my guess is that you are either an osu or um or big-10 homer,

OSU

but i find it funny that you rip larry coker for his coaching job in that 2002 title game. as far as i can remember, there was no talk of coker being outcoached in that game, and miami actually played pretty well.


That's because at the time, no one was able to separate how good Coker was as a coach from how talented that Miami team was. And it was wicked talented. It's only in hindsight that we realize that Coker was probably not the winner in the coaching matchup that day.


losing mcgahee really hurt them and let's not forget the pass interference call.


Valid points; luck was definitely a factor. However, smart coaching kept the game close enough that luck was able to turn the tide. You can get lucky and still lose by 30.


i have nothing bad to say about tressel, and i know he won't take the gators lightly - but if you think he will out coach urban meyer, think again. i see a tight game.


Tressel doesn't have to outcoach Meyer, that's the thing. OSU is without a doubt in my (and most people's) mind more talented than Florida. The only way Florida can make up the talent gap is via a string of luck (like, say, a returner muffing a punt at the 2-yard line), or by coaching. As long as Tressel is the equal of Meyer, Florida can't win by coaching. That's my point.

CMFost said...

Can we talk NFL?

Vince Young might be better then people think and what a sick game winning kick 60 yards are you kidding me.

Bush finally has a break out game but is that going to be the norm or just a once in a while think

Patriots - just skated by a team they should beat, keep turning the ball over and they are one and done in the playoffs

Giants - DONE!!!!

Bears - stop throwing all the stupid long bombs use the running game control the clock. Your defense will not win the championship for you unless you can create a little offence.

Cutler - wasnt he supposed to be better then Plummer

Anonymous said...

Easy to take the high road Dan when it's your team who benefits.

As Herbstreit said last night "Michigan has been ahead of Florida for 6 weeks. What happened this week that made voters say well now Florida is better than Michigan?"

I don't have a dog in this hunt, my school didn't even have a D1 team, but it's disingenuous to bitch and moan for two paragraphs a few weeks ago about Florida not getting every #1 vote in a preseason basketball poll...but now you're sick about griping? Come on.

As far as the NFL goes, I was at the Giants game yesterday. I will pretend it never happened. Good teams win these close games and I have finally accepted that they are not a good team.

Ed said...

Yeah, leave the current system in place is pretty much what I'm saying. A DI tournament would only rarely determine who the best team in college football is. What a tournament does show when all is said and done is which team suffered the fewest key injuries, got the most bounces of the ball and close calls, and was just plain lucky.

My point is that fairness and objectivity just don't come into play much when a champion emerges, either on the field or through the polls.

Anonymous said...

I find it funny that everyone has a problem with Florida leaping Michigan to play for the title, but there was virtually no complaints when it was going to be USC ahead of Michigan.

Also, even if OSU does slaughter Florida, what's the big deal? OSU is the #1 team in the country and everyone has been ready to hand them the title since August. So, wouldn't a huge OSU victory just validate what everyone's been saying?

CMFost said...

why is the SEC the best conference when two of the top two teams in the nation are in the Big 10?


Simple Depth - The big-10 was very top heavy this year and in the final BCS standing had 3 teams in the top 25
Where the SEC has 5 teams in the final top 25.

You also have 9 team from the SEC in bowl game vs. 6 from the big 10

ChrTh said...


Greg Oden didn't look SO dominating in his debut, but again, it was just a debut


Until you realize he was shooting fouls and blocking shots with his left hand and then you're like ... oh crap, really?!?

BTW, if the Bobcats make the playoffs, they're a shoo-in for the title. After beating the Cavs and Spurs, they've now beaten the Pistons to snap an 8-game win streak by Detroit. Now if we can just figure out how to beat teams like Atlanta ...

CMFost said...

As Herbstreit said last night "Michigan has been ahead of Florida for 6 weeks. What happened this week that made voters say well now Florida is better than Michigan?"

1. Herbstreit is a big-10 lacky and will always support the bog 10 team over any team.

2. Maybe the voters saw the SEC championship game and then look at the body of work Florida turned in and the SOS and said they deserve to be #2.

Dave Rothgery said...

One-loss Louisville from the weak Big East?

The weak Big East? More like the 'as-good-as-the-SEC-thinks-it-is' Big East. When 3 of 8 teams have ten or more wins, 5 of 8 are in bowls, 6 of 8 are bowl-eligibile, only one conference has a better non-conference record, and no one has a better record against BCS conference teams, that's a strong, deep conference.

Anonymous said...

chrth -

so for the most part, you agreed with my points. and even though we now realize that coker is not a great coach, i still don't believe he got outcoached in that game. osu outplayed miami and had some luck.

my point is that now you have this talented osu team that everyone says will kill fla. because, looking at how fla. lacked style points this year in their wins, there is no way they can stay on the field with osu. but let's be honest, fla. has a lot of talent and they can outplay osu, just like osu did miami. not saying they will, but as lou holtz likes to say, these are 18-22 year old kids we are talking about.

Chris W said...

Dan, you are such a homer its insane. I can't even take you serious in any CFB related matter. You could try to fake it once in a while and leave yourself with some credibility.

Anonymous said...

As a Michigan fan, I'm excited about three things:

1) A solid, classic match-up against USC. The fact that they got beat last week takes a little bit of the fun out of it, but this should be a good game played by two pissed-off teams.

2) Rooting for the Big Ten, including OSU, and against the SEC. I think we're all sick of hearing how inferior our conference is.

3) 2007.

ChrTh said...

Jayzee:

Is Henne going to be back next season? If not, who's waiting in the wings at QB?

What about Manningham?

Anonymous said...

Why does Dan have to be objective? This is his blog and he can support any team/opinion he wants. It's not exactly like Dan is the only writer who talks about his "team". Do the names Simmons and Whitlock ring any bells?

mbpollack said...

Why a playoff system is better (despite difficulty determining who ought to be in the playoff bracket):

1. It gives more teams a chance at the national title. Even if you have five or six teams with legitimate national title hopes (which most years you won't get), and only four can make the playoff, at least you give four teams a shot. The current system allows for two. A four team playoff wouldn't be perfect, but it'd have to be better than what we've currently got. The biggest problem with the current system is *not* that it's an imperfect science (which it of course is), but rather that it's too restrictive.

2. While DS is right that you open yourself up to more griping as to who the fourth team in is, in the last few years, there have only been three or (maybe) four teams with national championship resumes. This year, the only team that *really* deserves a shot that won't get one is Michigan. Last year, it was Penn State. The year before, Auburn. The year before that USC. With a four-team playoff you may be opening the door for a lower-quality team (whether its Wisconsin or Boise State or Lousiville or whoever) to get in and a host of more complaints from the peanut gallery, but you at least give a shot to that third national championship contender team. To me, that's probably the most important thing.

P.S. Dan, it sounds like you're changing your tune on the conference business. In your post on Saturday you listed as 1a and 1b the facts that Florida won the SEC while Michigan did not as a reason for Florida to get the slot in the game. What changed?

Brave Sir Robin said...

Actually, if you remember the OSU/Miami game, people raved about Tressel outcoaching Coker. OSU was widely considered to be much less talented, especially on offense, but they played smart and disciplined.

Also, McGahee only got injured near the end of the third quarter, maybe early fourth. Miami had been losing the entire game at that point. They made up the difference after that.

You mention the pass interference penalty. That's all well and good, but what everyone seems to ignore is that if the Refs had correctly called the pass interference (not to mention a catch by Jenkins for a first down) on the OSU drive before the Miami game tying-drive, there probably wouldn't have even been an overtime.

Prediction:
OSU 35- FLA 17

Mike said...

DS- Re: Miami in an otherwise soft BCS

Um, FSU (play every year, beats Miami even in down years), VT (one of only two teams to have a 10 win season each of the last 3 years, the other being USC), Georgia Tech (y'know, the team that beat Miami the last two years).

Doesn't matter what confrence you go to, there's ALWAYS teams you'll struggle to beat.

Anonymous said...

Hey:
1. Dan griping about BCS griping while griping is rather silly.
2. Florida might be #1, we don't know yet because OhSt and FLA haven't played yet. I mean, the whole system is based on the voters being 90% wrong 11 weeks out of 12.
3. Tressel is classy. None of the coaches should be voting.
4. If the Cardinals aren't the best baseball team because the playoff games don't prove anything, then the REGULAR SEASON doesn't prove anything. That argument is a complete non-starter.

I'm a Yankees fan, btw, and I don't care if they win 120 games, if they lose in the playoffs because of the curse of A-Rod, then they aren't the best team.

You can't just make up who the best team is based on the fact you ran up the score against Baltimore in baseball or Minnesota in college football.

For example, the Patriots are without any doubt (as a Bills fan I say this) the best NFL team in the last 5 years. And they never blew anyone out in that time period. The Colts blow everyone out and still went nowhere in the same time period. That's why Florida is more impressive than Ohio State.

So Dan probably IS biased, but that doesn't mean Michigan and OhSt is better than Florida.

No one ever talks about this, but shouldn't the college towns be rewarded with playoff games? Don't the boosters care about supporting their local economy? Or is it only USC, Miami, Louisiana, etc. that deserve home bowl games, local money from the bowl games and a boost to their recruiting efforts?

rafael said...

Herbstreit has always been a very fair and unbiased analyst on ESPN.
The argument is valid when one considers the vote swings that took place for UF to pass UM.
That doesn't make Herbie a B10 homer.


BTW...Oden getting a double-double in 23 minutes with one hand? That's pretty impressive to me.

Perks said...

I dont necessarily have a problem with the coaches who a.) didn't vote (Tressel), and b.) put Florida number 1.

Is Florida number 1? I don't think so. But if someone decidedly thinks that they deserve to be in the title game, and because he knows how the system works, why not vote them #1?

Same thing with Tressel. I think these coaches enjoy the responsibility of voting, but when the votes are now made public, they would rather a playoff. I blame the system, not the coaches.

john (ann arbor, mi) said...

Everyone -

It's over. Ok?

Dan just wants the last word, but it's his blog, so he can have it. He's lying to everyone plus himself if he thinks he would have written the same things if the decision had come down differently, but that's up to him, and there's nothing to be done now. We already know exactly what we all have to say, respectively, and everybody has their own, unyielding, interpretation, based on the facts and especially their personal biases.

Here's what we can do -

Everybody who's happy about the BCS outcome: be happy. You don't need to justify yourself to anyone, it worked out for you.

Everybody who's not: be happy about the January football we get to see. Some teams and conferences get a great chance to put and/or shut up. We get to see the class of the Big Ten vs. that of the SEC, Pac-10, SEC, and SEC. And don't be surprised if that Notre Dame game turns into a real contest/shootout/ND blowout.

Yeah, I fuckin' said it. I've been watching SEC teams play "defense" for the last 4 weeks. You can give me your prediction, but mine stands. Don't holler at me now, let's wait a month and see some teams prove some stuff. On The Field.

What should be the biggest disappointment of the BCS schedule is that Louisville and Wake Forest get to have the BCS Pillowfight of the Century. Somebody has to win, and then they're in the Top 5ish. I understand that they're necessary to make the conferences sign contracts and everything, but automatic bids for these conferences is poo. I guess what I really want is Michigan or OSU (teams that can play consistently against reasonable competition) to play all the upstarts from silly conferences, to put them in their places.



Dan - good call on Reggie Bush. Pfft.
What the fuck was that Chicago-Minnesota game? I can't stand the NFL, and I don't necessarily know how passer ratings work, but the line from that game would make you think that the absolute maximum possible is around 25. 10.3-to-1.3? A QB played all game, had a 1.3 passer rating, and won? What is going on?

FutureLegendVinceYoung said...

This NC game between Florida and OSU is going to be a walk for OSU. OSU has so many weapons and the best QB in CFB. Florida has a solid team but Leak is not a good fit in that offense and while the D is outstanding OSU took apart a great Michigan D.

I think OSU has more playmakers and if UF shuts down Ginn that is no problem because there is Gonzo, Robo, Hall, Pittman and Wells. Urban is a good coach and once he gets his players in there to run the offense Florida is going to be perennial top 5-10 team but right now Tressel is the best in the business and will find some ways to exploit UF's D.

I agree with Dan and some other posters that what Tressel did was lame but I do not think it is nearly as lame as that dumb fuck Harris Poll voter who voted for UF number 1. Why aren't you calling him out Shanoff.

Last thing, I went to the Titans/Colts game yesterday and VY is going to be an unreal QB in the NFL. Unlike Vick he is trying to be a pass first QB and only runs when he needs to (similar to McNair when he was younger) the Titans are building a solid team here in Nashville and today that is all the city can talk about.

H said...

@Ed

Dude, what is the point you're trying to make. A championship is never fair whether it is on the field or by votes? So f**k it, why even play at all? You're right, the "BEST" team doesn't always win the championships on the field. That's what makes playoffs in every sport so compelling, because there is always that chance of an upset. You mentioned the Cards weren't the best in baseball this season. But they played the best in the playoffs and deserved their title. And it was actually kinda fun to watch. If MLB was decided by votes or polls, it would have been the Yankees and Mets in the World Series. And I honestly don't think it'd have been half as entertaining.

So If you don't like either system, what would you like to see Ed?

Geoff-Detroit said...

chrth, Hart/Mannigham/Henne are all back.

john (ann arbor, mi) said...

perks -

Tressel is ok.

I hate the fucker for personal reasons, but the voting thing seems perfectly reasonable to me.

That Florida #1 voter is a ball-licker. What if all the pro-Michigan-in-the-game voters had voted Michigan #1 and omitted Florida from their ballots?

You say clever, the rest of the universe says ball-licker.

LudaKris said...

Everyone keeps calling for a playoff...you should do this playoff, with this many teams, and I have a plan to solve everything. Well...you are all wrong. No, the BCS is not perfect, but atleast we get entertaining games all year long. Noone see that if we went to a playoff system, the first thing that takes a hit is non-conference games. NO SCHOOL would schedule a Div I-A school that was not in there own conference. WHY? When all that matters is making it into the playoffs, and making it to the playoffs healthy, why would you risk losing a game to a good school? There would be no more in state rivalries between good schools in different conferences becuase why risk losing a game, all that mattes is making it to the playoffs. (No more Fla vs FSU, Louisville vs Kentucy, Georgia vs G. Tech, etc.)

Simply put, it would ruin the season to implement a playoff.

ChrTh said...

I posted this in the other thread, and I'm posting it again because I still think it's relevant:

Why playoffs suck, by Me

I watched two games this weekend in which an underdog team shocked a team that is considered one of the best in the country.

Now USC has to come back to the same spot its national title hopes fell apart upon in a month. How's that for bittersweet?

Indy? Well, they'll still go to the playoffs. Heck, they might even win the Super Bowl. And three weeks from now no one will care that the Titans beat them on a 60-yard field goal.

And people wonder why I oppose a College Football playoff? What more evidence do you need?

Chris said...

Dan,

As an alum of a Big 10 school, (as are you by the way which makes your slurping up to your wife's team even more pathetic)Penn State, I usually make it a habit to root against Ohio State. Nothing against OSU it's just that if they lose it often times helps my team in the conference. However, I will root for the Buckeyes for the next 5 weeks like I went to school there. I'm so happy that Florida will be playing Ohio State for the title. Because when they receive their beatdown what will you, and all the SEC apologists say then? When the best team in "the toughest football conference of all time" (as someone called the SEC on this blog) gets handled by the best team in the Big 10, where will the SEC whiners go to make an argument?

One thing about Tressel, he will not get out-coached. Those reverse passes for touchdowns, and Tim Tebow QB draws aren't going to work against Laurenitis and the boys. And I know Reggie Nelson is the greatest defensive player you've ever seen (another ridiculous UF homer statement that makes your lack of objectivety laughable. Almost as bad as the Gator hoop team having the greatest frontcourt of the past 25 years) but I want to see him manage to stop Ginn, Gonzo, Pittman, and T. Smith for a full game.

As I stated before I'm really happy that Florida will be playing Ohio State. Now no one will have to hear the incessant whining from UF/SEC fans for the next 5 weeks. You can use the 2002 Ohio State team argument if you like. I just don't see how a team that needed 2 blocked kicks to beat South Carolina at home is going to be able to handle Ohio State. I'm happy you got what you wanted Dan. Just remember, be careful what you wish for.

ChrTh said...


Hart/Mannigham/Henne are all back


Any chance any would declare early?

Eric said...

I haven't weighed in yet - OSU will crush Florida (Florida isn't the OSU team that beat Miami, Dan). It's too bad how it ended up - MI OSU would have been one hell of a game, again. Oh well. I think someone said it best when they said - 3 Big 10 teams will end up in the top 5...

mbpollack said...

chrth:

Your critique of a playoff system doesn't make any sense. We require [near] perfection from our national championship teams all season. Think about it. If Ohio State had ended up losing that close game against Illinois, they would be on the outside looking in right now, even if they are the most talented team in the country.

If you have a problem when a less talented team beats a more talented one, why even bother playing ANY games all season? Why not just pit the preseason #1 against the preseason #2 and be done with it?

Anonymous said...

ludakris -

how stupid is that argument? no schools will schedule d-1 schools out of conference if there is a playoff? first of all, the tradition of a uf-fsu or ga-gatech matchups will not go away. and the ncaa can easily mandate that no scheduling of d-1aa schools. not to mention making it punitive to schedule lesser d-1 schools and reward tougher schedules(say, like basketball does?). it's not that difficult. this argument that a playoff would water down the regular season is ridiculous. 10-12 games to make your case to qualify...intensity every week. just like the nfl. just like the other divisions of college football.

CMFost said...

For all those against a playoff what would rather be watching this week these 8 games

#1 OSU vs. #16 Rugers
#2 Florida vs #15 Virginia Tech
#3 Michigan vs #14 Wake Forest
#4 LSU vs #13 West Virginia
#5 USC vs #12 Arkansas
#6 Louisville vs #11 Notre Dame
#7 Wisconsin vs #10 Oklahoma
#8 Boise State vs #9 Auburn

with the following weekend being the winners of
1v16 vs 8v9
2v15 vs 7v10
3v14 vs 6v11
4v13 vs 5v12


instead of 0 NCAA games until 12-19 when you get the exciting TCU v Nothern illinois battle

Anonymous said...

excellent call cmfost

Geoff-Detroit said...

Hart/Mannigham/Henne are all back

Any chance any would declare early?


Mannigham is only a sophomore so he can't leave. I doubt Henne would because at this point he would be lucky to be a 6th round pick. Solid QB but needs another year. Hart would be the only one I would be worried about but he is kind of undersized for the NFL so he would be kind of dumb to leave early. They will also have Arrington back.

They will lose Steve Breaston and Jake Long, however.

phipsijeff said...

c'mon Dan...

DePaul upsets #5 Kansas in college basketball and not even a MENTION of it?!

the big east better watch out for DePaul or more upsets will be on the way (note: see win vs Syracuse by 39 right before the Big East Tounrnament).

also, I made my debut on the web...

http://broadband.espn.go.com/ivp/splash?ceid=2683870

(I'm the guy with the basketball on his head)

CMFost said...

Mannigham is only a sophomore so he can't leave.

Actually he can I believe the NFl rule is you need to be out of High School for 2 years.

Brendan Burke said...

One thing that people have said is that there is a playoff in every other sport in the NCAA. As a former player in one of those lesser NCAA football divisions, I am insulted that the NCAA apparently doesn't care about the academics of its lower tier schools. Actually if the NCAA cared about the academics of the lower schools, they would go to a playoff. Less money being exchanged from player to coaches to boosters to schools, playoffs are done by finals in the "other" divisions.
Also, seriously Dan, get over your love affair with UF. I think it might be a close BCS championship game, but OSU is too powerful and diverse. If you weren't such a homer, then you would realize this. Kinda like you realized that UF frontcourt isn't the best in the past 25 years. Hell, as KU showed, they aren't even the best in the Nation NOW.

GuyInTheCorner said...

TAKE A LOOK AT THESE....

Doomsday Circumstances

Florida beats Ohio State by 1
Michigan beats USC by 20
Boise State beats Oklahoma with Adrian Peterson by 20


Profiles after bowl games:

Florida (13-1)
Wins: at (#13)Tennesse by 1, (#9)LSU by 13, (#8)Arkansas by 10, (#1) Ohio State by 1
Loss: at (#11)Auburn by 10

Michigan (12-1)
Wins: at (#2)Notre Dame by 26, Wisconsin by 14, (#5)USC by 20
Loss: at (#1)Ohio State by 3

Ohio State (12-1)
Wins: at (#2)Texas by 17, (#24)Penn State by 22, at (#13)Iowa by 21, (#2)Michigan by 3
Loss: (#2)Florida by 1

Boise State (13-0)
Wins: Oregon State by 28, Hawai'i by 7, (#8)Oklahoma by 20
Losses: NONE, and thats the main thing


So, look at those situations. There's a clear national champion here? Where? I'm confused.

Richard said...

DS,

The point of the BCS championship game is not about determining the #2 team (in order to match them up with #1). It's about determining the #1 team.

That being said, Michigan has no case for being in the championship game. If you aren't the #1 team in your conference, you can't possibly be the #1 team in the nation.

Of course that still leaves Boise State......and Reggie Ball sucks (just had to throw that in there).

ChrTh said...

@mbpollack

I'm not sure where you're getting that from in my opinion against a playoff. If OSU lost to Illinois and was on the outside looking in, then great! That's why OSU needs to beat Illinois. Or USC needs to beat UCLA.

In pro football, Indianapolis doesn't need to beat Tennessee. While that works for pro football, I prefer how college football works. I won't use the standard cliches, but ultimately, I don't care who's crowned national champion. I just like watching some exciting football games week in and week out.

Ed said...

h--

In trying to shoot down my case, you actually made it. You wrote, "A championship is never fair whether it is on the field or by votes? So f**k it, why even play at all? You're right, the "BEST" team doesn't always win the championships on the field. That's what makes playoffs in every sport so compelling, because there is always that chance of an upset."

Well the best teams don't always even get into a tournament. Whether that happens at the beginning of a season, due to bad poll numbers or a season-ending injury to a best player, or at the end doesn't matter.

The possibility of upsets and the fact that one call going my team's way could make all the difference is why I watch sports. I don't gnash my teeth and rend my clothes when the breaks go to the other side. I just accept it as part of how sports works.

Question: If Boise State played Ohio State in the national title game and Boise won because Troy Smith and Ted Ginn couldn't play, would Boise State have shown themselves to be a better team?
Answer: Boise would be champs, and that would be great, but it wouldn't mean they were superior to Ohio State, just at fuller strength during a single game.

That's my point. Stop demanding total fairness in a system that can never be totally fair.

Anonymous said...

I'm going to bring BOOTY signs to the 2008 NFL draft, so the Bills better suck next year, too.

I don't understand how anyone can discount the Big East this year. They really stepped it up after losing Miami and they are the toughtest conference in some rankings.

bad_andy said...

I agree that a playoff system would be almost as complicated as the BCS.

Here is my thought: Why doesn't football go they way of basketball and use a committee to decide who plays who and in what bowl?

You won't have the argument about biased voters, they can chose to look at style points or not, hopefully know if a team is deserving of a certain level of bowl games.

Although people still complain about being shafted by the NCAA Tournament committee, its not nearly as often as people complain about the BCS and the polls.

Anonymous said...

CFB Ladder Rankings are out for this week. Interesting that the ladder has Oklahoma as #2. Florida? They're #5. Michigan? #10. I'll be posting the entire 119 team list later.

What's being left unsaid is the fact that Oklahoma has REALLY been the team that was screwed out of the title shot. An admitted officiating mistake gave this team a loss they should not have. This Oklahoma team would very likely be the consensus #2 team in the nation if they were 12-1 with their only loss to Texas rather than 11-2. I guess everyone conveniently forgot about this while arguing Lloyd "I'm an asshole to sideline reporters" Carr or Urban "I'm a fucking crybaby" Meyer should be coaching the #2 team.

The only other thing I have to say is that Michigan should really shut up about not getting their shot. They're obviously the #2 team in the nation behind OSU and after the bowls, the final rankings will show OSU #1, Michigan #2. Mark my words.

CMFost said...

Top 5 after the bowls: My predicition

#1 - Florida
#2 - OSU
#3 - LSU
#4 - USC
#5 - Louisville

Anonymous said...

Who cares if intra-division "rivalries" are ruined by playoffs? Teams play too many cheesy games as it is. Miami switched conferences pretty easily for someone to whine about rivalries.

Anonymous said...

freky j

yeah...that makes sense. ou comes out of a piss poor big 12 and should be #2. why don't we just let you decide the national championship and forget the games?

Big D said...

@geoff-detroit:

"Hart/Mannigham/Henne are all back"


How is that possible? Isn't Chad Henne like 32 years old at this point? Seems like he's been leading that team for at least six years.

And I say this as a Michigan fan. I'm honestly drawing a complete blank as to who was the last QB before Henne.

Anonymous said...

According to the ladder format which has strength of schedule automatically built, since points awarded are based on the difference in points between the two teams playing, Oklahoma is the #2 team despite the additional loss, which means their strength of schedule is such that even with 2 losses, they stand out above Louisville (#3), Boise State (#4) and Florida (#5).

Imagine how high they would be if they didn't have that Oregon game against them.

Sheldiz said...

my two cents on the BCS....

I like the idea of a playoff. If we can deal with the fact in every other sport that its not always going to be 1 vs 2 in the last game, why can't we seem to handle it in college football?

i also think a playoff system would attract more people who didn't go to a big footboll school to watch. i like a good football game, regardless of who is playing, but i like a good football game even more if its a playoff and there's a chance some crazy george-mason-esque team could win it all.

As far as the argument about how teams would change scheduling if there was a playoff system... if the NCAA can make it a rule that i have to go for a two-point conversion after 2 OTs on every touchdown, they sure as hell can regulate schedule-making.

Biff said...

16-team playoff.

Conference champions of all conferences:

ACC
Big 12
Big East
Big Ten
Conference USA
MAC
MWC
PAC 10
SEC
Sun Belt
WAC

You then have 5 at-large bids. I say keep the current BCS standings and the next 5 teams in the rankings regardless of conference get an invite. For all I care, seeding can also be determined by ranking in the current BCS standings. (I'm not a huge fan of these polls, but again I just want teams like Boise State to get a shot... sure maybe they'll get lousy seeding, but that's better than nothing).

In regards to the out-of-conference scheduling during the regular season, I think it actually gets BETTER, not worse. It will be a lot like NCAA basketball. You will schedule teams you think you can beat, but you will be more willing to schedule a tougher team knowing that as long as you win your conference, you'll still go to the playoffs. If you don't think you'll win our conference, you'll want to be a bit more conservative, hoping you can be ranked high in the BCS to still get an "invite".

Tourney goes on over four weeks. As earlier posted, you can keep traditional bowls for non-playoff matchups. Home team is determined by seeding until you get to the final three (or seven) games where you can use the high-profile bowls as destinations.

Anybody who thinks this won't draw more TV revenue and create more money for the schools than the current BC$ system is smoking something.

The only difference is that the BC$ schools and conferences will have to share money with the "other" conferences and may not make as much money per school as they have in the past. If you look at the disparity between BC$ money paid per school between the BC$ conference teams and the non-BC$ conference teams, you'll see why things are the way they are. And it's not about determining a champion. It's about $$$$$$$$$$.

LudaKris said...

-pootietang

What are you getting at...you are trying to change everything about college football now, just by implementing a playoff. Yes, FSU and FLA will still probably play becuase of tradition, but no way NCAA is going to say, no more Div II schools can play Div I schools. THat is in your own words "How stupid is your argument". That would make Illnois, Duke, North Carolina the most wanted teams in NCAA. Any horrible Div I team will be courted by big football schools. OSU would NEVER schedule Texas again, and fans would miss out on a GREAT game early in the season. You will see that every major/minor conference will MOST likely have an unbeaten team. We would be stuck with 6 unbeaten teams for 4 playoff spots, or 4 unbeaten teams for 8 playoff spots and a huge amount of one loss teams 'crying' or 'lobying' to be included. We would have pandemonium all over again on who is the best 1 loss team to deserve to make the playoff spot.

So...come correct or dont come at all. Your weak, your argument is weak, there will be NO playoffs in college football...EVER!

ChrTh said...

Best. 10 Spot. Line. EVER.


NBA players have filed a lawsuit over the league's crackdown on complaining. The suit will be tossed on the grounds of irony.

LudaKris said...

Its all about the $$$$$$$ is correct. Try and tell the 'Outback Bowl' committee that just spent huge amounts of money to lock there name and rights into a decent bowl game that "sorry, we decided to go to a playoff system, you will now get the 4th best team in two conferences to play in the Outback bowl". Do you think anyone will care about bowl games, especially if the the top 16 teams are in a playoff.

Money talks. Cooperations have signed deals, TV have signed deals, and the NCAA have signed deals. The money has already been spent way into 2012 ( I believe that is the correct date, but do not feel like researching). At best, becuase of contract negotations, you would see a playoff in say 2013. So please, everyone keep telling me how they can change NCAA football for the better, how there playoff systems is a sure way to keep fans interested and keep the integrity of the game. And please keep comparing it to the NFL and all its parity.

john (ann arbor, mi) said...

big d -

haha, I had trouble too. Remember John Navarre? Good times.

Henne just finished 3 straight years of this, starting unexpectedly as a (yeah, 28-year-old) freshman; Matt Gutierrez was supposed to start that year, but Henne just took over after he got hurt at the start of the season.


freky -

Something's wrong with that system, then. Does it only take into account games that have already been played? That is, would Michigan have cared how Notre Dame did against USC, using this ladder thing? Or is the rest of a team's season unimportant, after you have played them?

Cuz that'd be pretty useless. Teams keep playing all year.

FuckingBrian said...

There is one reason why I don't endorse a playoff system. Think about when the tourney games would be, mid to late December. So any practices would be beginning now. Do you know what's coming up for college students?

Final Exams.

Remember, these are STUDENT athletes. The Fans wanting something shouldn't interfere with the supposed goal of college which is to provide these young men with an education. Can we at least pretend about caring about academics? Its bad enough that the Basketball Tournament eclipses Spring Finals.

Geoff-Detroit said...

Navarre was the QB before Henne. Henne was a stud freshman who was supposed to sit a year and be prepped while Matt Gutierrez started in his senior season. Gutierrez got hurt before the first game and Henne started and never looked back.

Big D said...

John freakin' Navarre.

Gawd, I just had Nam-like flashbacks. Must have blocked those years out of my memory.

CMFost said...

FuckingBrian said...

There is one reason why I don't endorse a playoff system. Think about when the tourney games would be, mid to late December. So any practices would be beginning now. Do you know what's coming up for college students?

Final Exams.

Remember, these are STUDENT athletes.



Tell me how it really effects these student athlete, they are still practicing every day and going to classes. And how does it effect you studying if you fly to a location on friday night and fly home after the game saturday. The whole academics arguement does not fly. The only change to the schedule is instead of practicing to play a bowl game every day they would be practicing to play a game. And if you lost in the first round your season is over and you have less practice and more study time,

setherton22 said...

Didn't the Sports Guy make up some rule about picking a college team to root for?

He said that he didn't pick (or have) a favorite team in college because he couldn't meet any of the following criteria:

1) Grew up near the school or in the state of the school

2) Went to the school

3) Wife went to the school

4) Kid went to the school

Dan doesn't meet any of these criteria because his wife is only from Gainesville.

He should only be allowed to root for: Maryland, Northwestern and wherever his wife went (I don't know where that is) in football and Georgetown also in basketball.

Big D said...

@ brian:

Sorry Brian, I gave up on the "student" side of "student athletes" a long time ago.

I would venture a guess that more than half of the "student" athletes in the major athletic programs are more athlete than student. No disrespect to guys that actually care about going to classes (the QB at tOSU before Troy Smith, the bio-med major, he comes to mind...) But a majority of these students are going to college for one reason and one reason only: they are auditioning for their next career as a pro athlete.

I'm sure there are plenty of players in major sports at Michigan, UF, tOSU, OK, USC, ND, etc. that are focused on their academic pursuits just as much as their athletic ones. But I would say that if you gave every football player on the BCS-Bowl bound teams a little sodium pentathol and asked them "Which is more important to you - school or football", about 80% wouldn't hesitate to answer that sports trumps academics.

Guess I'm just a little jaded. I was an athlete for too long and know how the system works well enough to know just what a majority of these kids are thinking.

nyc-steelers fan said...

pootie,
how is the Big12 piss poor? Because noone was talking about them all year? The defending nat'l champs are from the big 12, and while they are in a down year, they have a bunch of bowl teams. I think it would be interesting if someone would readjust for that game, and calculate the computer rankings (obviously you couldn't do the same for the human polls, but OU would definitely be at least top 5, giving them a 0.15 bump, with a potential for 0.2 from the computers, which would put them right in the mix with UF and UM...).

I'm with you, freky j, on saying OU has a lot more to gripe about than any other college football team (imagine if the officials had handed USC or vandy two more chances against UF, or bowling green two more chances against UM)...

Biff said...

@cmfost & fbrian

I agree with cmfost absolutely... academics hasn't been a problem with 1-AA and 2-A, 3-A, etc. If it was such a problem, I would think the basketball tourney would be MUCH worse.

Remember, the NCAA just increased schedules to 12 games. No one complained about academics then. Plenty of teams are playing 13, 14, and even 15-game seasons already.

The tourney would only affect 16 out of 117 schools and 8 teams would have one extra game, 4 would have two extra games, 2 would have three, and 2 would have four. When you average that out over 117 schools, it's very negligible.

Anonymous said...

Final Exams for I-AA, II, and III are also coming up...and so are their semifinal and final games. So how do those student-athletes do it and what's preventing the I-A teams from doing the same thing?

Reggie Ball magic number: 1
Afterwards, Grant Field will be a better place and cars driving along North Avenue will not need to fear being struck by random footballs.

ChrTh said...


But I would say that if you gave every football player on the BCS-Bowl bound teams a little sodium pentathol and asked them "Which is more important to you - school or football", about 80% wouldn't hesitate to answer that sports trumps academics.


Ah, Big D, you fell into a trap ... for Wake Forest is BCS-bowl bound this year, and they graduate 98% of their football athletes.

Top in the nation, all divisions.

(It also helps that most of them know they won't be playing in the next level)

ChrTh said...

@setherton22,

While I tend to agree with you on this point, I have to mention that there are a lot of Tennessee Vols fans by me that are fans by family association. My boss' wife is from a UT family, and even though she didn't go there, she's a die-hard fan.

Bill's rules should really read:
1) Whoever your wife roots for

Richard said...

The AJC is reporting that Chan Gailey is considering benching Reggie Ball for the Gator Bowl. This is interesting for a few reasons:

1. I've never heard of a 4-year starter getting benched for his last game.

2. This didn't happen sooner?

3. I can't understand why it's happening after this particular game considering it was Reggie's best performance in over a month (if you discount the Duke game).

Anonymous said...

If Gailey does that, he should be fired. That should have been done in April, August, or October. Not now.

Let Ball play, go 7-30 (6 to CJ), and then we can all work on trying to forget the last four years.


(This has been your obligatory GT football discussion.)

Anonymous said...

nyc-steelers fan -

i am not saying ou should not have won that oregon game and should not be 12-1 right now and be upset about missing out on a chance to play in the bcs title game. but you can't defend a conference's strength by saying they have the defending national champion in it. i am not going to waste time explaining why the sec is a better conference, and by a wide margin. i think "nebraska, big 12 north champions" says it all. no disrespect to ou...my girlfriend graduated from there and i am a big bob stoops fan.

Dan Shanoff said...

My only problem with letting Boise State into a playoff (4-team, like Wilbon wants...yikes...or 8-team) is that if I was an AD of a good, power-conference team, I'd drop my conference affiliation immediately and line up 12 cupcake games, because apparently going unbeaten is somehow some kind of absolute achievement, nevermind the teams you played to get there. Then, I'd recruit successfully not on the premise of getting to play rivalry games or being affiliated with a great conference, but of perennially making the 8 team playoff field.

(For evidence of this, albeit under slightly different conditions, look at the way Wisconsin hoodwinked so many poll voters into thinking that their 11-1 record was somehow great. It's by the grace of LSU's crashing the BCS Top 4 along with Notre Dame's ludicrous near-guaranteed BCS deal that we didn't see Wisconsin lauhably playing in a BCS game. And, by the way, I historically have really liked and supported Wisconsin. But this year? Yeesh. But I'm not going to blame them as much as I'll blame the poll voters who so obviously didn't watch any Wisconsin games and simply said, "Oh, they're 11-1 out of the Big Ten...they MUST be good." Fools.)

I don't mean to knock Boise State: I love their story, and I appreciate that their coach understands that they had no business being in the national title discussion. The BCS went from 4 to 5 games to help teams like Boise State get the national platform (and money) that they deserve. But you can't possibly include them in a 4 or 8 team playoff simply for going unbeaten.

Jon said...

I really hope we don't have to sift through this BCS shit all the way through January. Sure, Ohio State and Michigan are probably the best 2 teams in the country but it would kill the system if they played again and Michigan won. And just imagine if Florida would have won their bowl game too.

john (ann arbor, mi) said...

Dan -

Hi!

I'm glad to read that you agree with me about Boise State; sure, they're undefeated - make them play a real team before giving them any real credit, though. Similarly, Wisconsin. These two teams have had pretty smooth seasons, and now they have chances to prove they actually belong in the top 10-ish. So, we'll see.

I am confused about your overexuberance in your Wisconsin-bashing, though. I'll allow the Wisconsin-bashing, but, uh, you know that no circumstances would have allowed them to constitute the 3rd Big Ten team in the BCS, right?

Sometimes your posts confuse me in ways like this.



Anyway, looking forward to the bowl season; all of these unanswerable questions that have been thrown back and forth all season about conferences and such will soon be answerable.

Go... Buckeyes.

Biff said...

@dan

I appreciate that their coach understands that they had no business being in the national title discussion

Where do you get this idea? Show me a quote from anywhere where the BSU coach doesn't think he should be considered in contention?

Anyways, the 16-team playoff concept with conference champions as auto-bids, will ensure schools stay in their conference. Independents are forced to rank high in the BC$ poll (to get one of the at-large bids). Make the first round payout between $1 and $2 million (average non-BC$ bowl payout) so there is not a huge incentive for teams to fabricate a schedule to get in.

Second round payout can be a significant step up, with remaining rounds similar or slightly higher.

Anyways, I don't like ND auto-bid rules, and I see what you're getting at, but I think it is fairly simple to fix and prevent.

LudaKris said...

I could not have said it better DS...say goodbye to a good regular season with the implementing of a playoff system.

Anonymous said...

"In theory, why can't the second-best team in a conference be the second-best team in the country?"
--And so, in theory, why can't the number two team lose to number one team in the country, if they have to lose one game? You concede one point, but you outright deny its logical cousin. There is no foundation to argue against a rematch. Most of all, that consideration isn't the voters' concern--it's to choose the number two team in the country. That's what polls are for, and somehow this was lost in our collective minds for one week.

My hat goes off to the people who politicked losing to the #1 team in the country by 3 points into a liability (while losing to Auburn, by fiat, must be an asset). That's worthy of Karl Rove.

//still shoulda won all their games, though

Anonymous said...

NCAA Division II has playoff games. So enough of the "education" arguments, or arguments about how it would ruin schedules. If every other sport can figure it out...

Geoff-Detroit said...

I don't really think Wisconsin hood-winked anyone into thinking they were great. I mean, they are ranked behind most of the teams they should be ranked behind and would probably beat a number of teams behind them. Certainly they would beat any of the Big East teams and they would beat Boise State or Notre Dame. Not really their fault that they didn't have OSU on the schedule this year. Sure, they played some bad non-conference games but so did Florida.

Jimithng said...

Okay I know a few already mentioned this...but Oden was completely dominating in his performance. He played 23 minutes and his stats were 10 rebounds, 5 blocks and 14 points 3-4 from the field and 8-15 from the line.

This is a very good performance considering he was not supposed to come back till January, but in the Shanoff world i guess its horrible

Your writing has become worse and worse since moving away from ESPN.

And once again its WVU not WVA!

Anonymous said...

understanding everyone's given biases, i am failing to see how anyone can say that michigan is so much better than florida and got "screwed". have we all forgotten that ohio state game, where the "vaunted" michigan defense gave up in the neighborhood of 600 yards and got a garbage td to make it a 3 point game. what would the margin have been if not for the 3 turnovers by osu, 2 of which michigan defense had nothing to do with since the osu center failed to get the shotgun snaps back to smith. if osu won that game by 17, would michigan apologists still be crying? the final score was a mirage of the reality of the difference between those 2 teams. and with the poular sentiment on this blog that nd sucks and wi is overrated, exactly who did michigan beat? i think michigan is a very good team, but come on!

LudaKris said...

Solomonrex...

How many Div II games have you seen this year....EXACTLY. What a great regular season. Can't wait untill next year when I watch exactly ZERO regular season games of exclusive Div II games.

Welcome to a non-existant regular season. No casual or real football fan (unless you went to school there) watches regular season Div II football. I MIGHT catch a playoff game or the championship game, but I sure as hell do not schedule my night around it.

Anonymous said...

College needs to have a 16 game playoff format. It's the only way.
Any BCS conference gets an automatic bid. If you're ranked in the top 5, but not a winner of your conference (as this year indicates), you get an automatic bid. I know that like I am for Michigan, but as it shows, this can happen. After that, you just take the rankings. I know this may cause some problems, but wouldn't this get us to our 16.
Dan,
I normally agree with you, but you missed the boat on this one... saying that Michigan had their chance already. Didn't Florida have their chance already? If you are following that argument, Boise State would be the next choice (although we all know they would get thumped). Also, saying that Michigan's game is as close to a post-season playoff game that we get is correct, but it's still a regular season game. You're punishing them for a regular season game.

Biff said...

Certainly they would beat any of the Big East teams and they would beat Boise State or Notre Dame.

OK... no argument an include so-and-so would certainly beat so-and-so... Um, didn't UCLA just beat USC last week?

Come on, if we're going to use that argument just don't even bother playing the regular season and have the preseason #1 and #2 play each other for the championship on September 1st. Obviously they would certainly beat anybody ranked below them.

Will there be upsets? Absolutely. But, in some cases it will prove that one team is actually better than the other.

Anonymous said...

How about a 6 team playoff, with the top 2 seeds getting a 1st round bye? The regular season would be worth a hack of a lot still and the top 2 teams would get quite an advantage.

Imagine:

Round 1 (the week before Christmas):
Louisville @ Michigan
USC @ LSU
Florida, bye
Ohio State, bye

So who gets shafted here? Would anyone argue that Wisconsin, Boise State, Auburn, or Oklahoma really deserve a National Title shot this year?

Plus, how great would it be to play Round 2 during Christmas (Michigan vs Florida and USC vs Ohio State) and the National Championship and 3rd place game on New Year's Day?!?

Anyway, back to reality...

Anonymous said...

Just one thing, and as a Michigan fan, I'm obviously biased, especially today, but in looking back at 2004, in which Auburn being left out was almost used as a hammer on this year's proceedings, one thing is clear:

Auburn did not get screwed.

The polls that year could only take into account the information before them, that was, the twelve games played already that year, not the results of the bowls themselves. Going into that week, nearly everyone thought that with all three teams playing on Championship Saturday, you'd get a good read. Though USC played the closest game, they'd been number one all year so they were in. The question was, then who had the more impressive resume, Auburn or Oklahoma.

2004 wasn't a vintage SEC year, AUburn beat good Georgia and LSU teams that year, but Florida and Tennessee weren't quite vintage teams (Florida fired Zook that year)and Auburn actually beat Tennessee twice, though not as decisively the second time.

Oklahoma beat Colorado 42-3 in their title game, and had the best win of any of the BCS contenders, given the final standings, Texas, who finished number 4. They'd been dominant most of the year.

You also seemed to get the sense that while most in the media knew it was odd that the undefeated SEC champion wouldn't be playing for the title, they sort of accepted it as the nature of a very strange year, after all, you had seen 5 teams finish unbeaten.

THe reason Auburn fans can say they were screwed only has to do with the nature of the Oklahoma loss to USC. If the score were closer, but still decisive, like say, 35-19, they're probably wouldn't have been the outcry even two years later, especially given the closeness of the Auburn win over Va Tech.

I agree that usually the SEC is the best conference, however that doesn't give its champion a free ticket to the title game.

Biff said...

So who gets shafted here? Would anyone argue that Wisconsin, Boise State, Auburn, or Oklahoma really deserve a National Title shot this year?


Aaaaaiiieeee! Any solution that allows a team to go undefeated during the season and not get at least a shot at the national title is ASININE. Name one other sport where that is possible. The bias against non-BC$ teams is just staggering.

CMFost said...

@ludikris

Welcome to a non-existant regular season.


Is the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, and College B-ball season non-existant? I think not .

Jeff said...

" I don't think it's invalid for voters to have used "Michigan had their chance" as one piece of their criteria; it's as close to a real playoff as college football had this season. "

The point of the BCS is to place the two BEST teams vs each other. This should never ever come into a pollsters mine when creating their ballot. It should simply be who they think the better team is, Michigan or Flordia.

If pollsters voted Flordia above of Michigan just because "michigan already had their chance" but thought that Michigan was the better team, the system failed.

Thats the problem with that criteria being a factor, because it undermines the point of the system.

Geoff-Detroit said...

So Biff, By your logic ND should stop scheduling good teams and only schedule the stiffs they generally play, plus additional stiffs. That way they would finish undefeated every year and get to play for the championship everywhere? What is the incentive to play good teams if you are rewarded equally for playing awful teams.

Richard said...

TBender,

Benching Reggie is your reason for firing Gailey? I have about 100000000000 more reasons.

Anonymous said...

To defeat the lack of a regular season argument.

I-AA gives out 8 auto bids. The other 8 are determined by a selection committee. Very similar to March Madness as non-con is looked at in determining teams. San Diego won their conference (in a non-auto bid conference) and was left out due to their non-con schedule.

rafael said...

There are 119 teams in D-I. How would a playoff that allows a mere 4-8 teams into a playoff devalue the regular season?!

Ridiculous

ChrTh said...

Exhibit 177 on why Instant History Sucks.

SI.com poll:
Which was the biggest BCS title game snub?
Miami (10-1) in 2000 4% 1392 votes
Oregon (10-1) in 2001 4% 1272 votes
USC (11-1) in 2003 9% 3192 votes
Auburn (12-0) in 2004 61% 21504 votes
Michigan (11-1) in 2006 23% 7996 votes
Total: 35356 votes

Ok, so USC, which was #1 in both major polls in the country, only gets 9% of the vote? There's no way a snub could be larger than that.
My guess is that Miami and Oregon get such low numbers because nobody remembers.

Biff said...

@Geoff-Detroit

That was not my argument. I think they would have to continue to play at least as difficult a schedule as this year.

Are they over-rated in the BC$ standings this year? Probably. Should they be part of a 16-team playoff this year. Probably.

I just think using the existing BCS poll or something similar still gives plenty of incentive to have a somewhat strong schedule for an independent to "get in" to the playoff without a conference auto-bid.

I hope that makes sense.

john (ann arbor, mi) said...

uhhhhh...

It's over? The choices have been made, PLUS these are the same arguments we had 3 days ago?

Buuuuhhhh?

Anonymous said...

@john (ann arbor)

The teams are all rated equally at 1000 points at the beginning of the year. Ratings are only gained and lost through games played. Better than average teams are going to be above 1000 and worse than average teams are going to be below it. Playing teams that are sub-1000 will not gain you as many points as playing teams that are over 1000. That's how the strength of schedule works.

Big D said...

@ chrth:

"Ah, Big D, you fell into a trap ... for Wake Forest is BCS-bowl bound this year, and they graduate 98% of their football athletes."


"Graduating" 98% of their football athletes is great. But I absolutely guarantee they are the exception rather than the rule.

Colleges love to tout their graduation rates among student athletes as some type of beacon that the school is doing its job and preparing their athletes for life after sports.

Why then do so many "scholar" athletes that don't pan out in the pros go on to long and fulfilling lives selling cars or insurance or going back to broadcast or coach games at their old high schools?

(No offense to car/insurance salesmen or high school broadcasters...)

Fact is, most of the major college programs care about fielding the teams that are going to secure the school the most notoriety and land them in the most lucrative bowl game possible. If the kids that get them there are burned out within a year or two after they leave school, who cares?

This dovetails with my belief that student athletes should be compensated. Not signed to contracts, not made to consider playing sports a job, but given some type of stipend since many of them are unable to work, go to school, and play sports. Sports/Academics dictates their scholarship status, and therefore take up all of an athlete's time. Work is simply not an option.

Sorry. Tangent. I gotta work on that.

In the end, student athletes are more athlete and less student. You're not going to see too many stud wide receivers or power forwards pulling down a 3.5+ GPA in any kind of legitimate classes. Maybe in Jim Harrick's "History of Basketball" classes ar URI and UGA, but certainly not in anything they'll use later in life.

Anonymous said...

Btw, Dan. Wisconsin could not play in the BCS no matter what happened. Only 2 teams per conference are allowed to play. Wisconsin gets left out by that rule.

ChrTh said...

Actually, Big D, they might not be:

Link

It looks like BCS-bound schools are graduating athletes (well, the white ones, anyway) at a better rate than the entire country. Although come to think of it, WFU represents 10% of that average by itself, so it might be the deciding reason for that finding.

Big D said...

There is a whole different argument to be made about the white athlete vs. the black athlete vs. the hispanic athlete, etc. and their varying graduation rates.

Unfortunately, this isn't the thread to do so. More importantly, there is virtually no way to coherantly phrase the argument without coming off as a vitriol espousing racist, and that's not really something I'm prepared to do on a Monday.

Maybe on a Friday, if I've got a raging hangover.

Big D said...

Wow. Talk about bringing the conversation to a screeching halt...

Sorry guys. Just ignore my little diatribe there.

LudaKris said...

@CMFROST...

Your absolutely right....i could not agree more...but wait, these leagues all play 80-120 games, playing the same opponent 2,3, 4 times a year or more. So there is no question that one bad game does not ruin your entire season. NOT THE FUCKING CASE in college football. One loss (unless your UF) means you are out of the championship.

Everyone keeps bringing up good points, and I keep shooting them down.

Big Smitty said...

Guys,
the bowl system will NEVER change to a playoff. This is why, M O N E Y. Unless fans stop watching on TV and all the ad dollars dry up, unless fans stop buying tickets and the ticket sales dry up, the system will never change. They have no motivation to do so. All the BCS was in the first place was a bone thrown to everyone who wanted a playoff. We'll call it a series and change the polls a little, but it is all cosmetic.

Big D said...

You're absolutely right Smitty.

Before the BCS, we all decried the system that was reliant on human voters to determine who the best college team in the nation was.

With the BCS firmly entrenched in the college football landscape, we now complain about human voters having the power to sway the computer formula and determine which two teams get to play in the National Title Game.

Until the element of the "voters" is eliminated from the mathematical equation, there will always be subjectivity to it. There will always be a team that feels snubbed. There will always be a group of fans that is calling for a change in the system.

And that's why we all love it.

Anonymous said...

Benching Reggie is your reason for firing Gailey? I have about 100000000000 more reasons.

Benching Reggie now, with 1 game left in his career. (Yay!) Gailey picked his horse and rode it this far. Changing horses now is stupid.

ndyanksfan05 said...

I dont buy the money issue - your telling me that the BCS bowl games coming up couldn't be a playoff (of the current four games two of them are playoff games). That makes four teams in contention for the NC - then the winners play each other in the NC game. This makes for the same number of games plus the fact that the two BCS games that are playoffs are even more important and competitive generating more interest and more money. But then people will complain about which four teams, yada yada yada...no system will ever be perfect. At least in this scenerio everyone wins - the BCS stays the same in terms of number of games, and people get their "playoff" without comprimising the importance of the regular season.

CMFost said...

Hey Big smitty you do not think there is money in a playoff, I think the netowkrs would be pretty happy to pay a ton of money to air these games if there was a 16 team playoof

#1 OSU vs. #16 Rugers
#2 Florida vs #15 Virginia Tech
#3 Michigan vs #14 Wake Forest
#4 LSU vs #13 West Virginia
#5 USC vs #12 Arkansas
#6 Louisville vs #11 Notre Dame
#7 Wisconsin vs #10 Oklahoma
#8 Boise State vs #9 Auburn

Anonymous said...

Re: No money...

Let's see...having a big set of games where it's win or go home, finishing up with an overdone spectacular for a title.

Nope, it wouldn't work. It hasn't in the NFL for years now.

ndyanksfan05 said...

I think the problem is the fact that the regular season would be meaningless towards the end with that many teams in a playoff - the OSU - Michigan game would have been pointless because they would both have clinched high seeds in the playoffs. If you limit the number of teams to four or eight at the most, you maintain the importance of all the conference and rivalry games that make the collge football regular season as awesome as it is.

Big Smitty said...

CMFrost, I don't disagree with you. I think a 16 team playoff would be great to watch and would make a lot of money however, with the amount of money they already make I think they have no motivation to scrap the entire bowl system and start over.

Richard said...

TBender,

Don't change the horse? What about the horse that's blind, deaf, stupid and has 3 broken legs?

Ladies and Gentlemen: Reggie Ball!!!

Biff said...

The only arguments I hear against a 16-team playoff are:

1. Academics
2. Diminishing the importance of the regular season.
3. ?

Is that all?

1. Already addressed sufficiently
2. Well, the importance of conference games remains the same as always. You need to win your conference for the auto-bid. OOC games seem to be a point of contention and how they would change.

Here's a list of the top three's OOC games from this year:

Ohio State:
Northern Illinois
Cincy
Bowling Green
Texas

Florida:
So Miss
Central Florida
West Carolina
Florida State

Michigan:
Vanderbilt
Central Michigan
Notre Dame
Ball State

No offense, but it's obvious these teams have one quality OOC opponent AT MOST. I don't think this changes anything for anybody. In fact, it gives you the freedom to schedule interesting matchups that would maximize revenue for your school, and not be as worried about losing an OOC game. They can be used just as OOC in basketball are used... to give you an idea of how you would fare against a tougher team, and draw more fans to good rivalries or teams you've never played before.

Biff said...

Is it possible that the last game or two of the regular season may be "not as important"? Sure, we see it in the NFL and the NCAA once auto-bids or seeds have been soldified. There is nothing wrong with that, I believe.

Richard said...

Another thing about the BCS:

Louisville and Wisconsion should have been in the title discussion with UF and UM.

Any "system" that doesn't grant an undefeated team a chance at a championship is not just flawed, its a mockery of sports in general.

(I'm not saying Boise State should win the BCS championship. But, they do have as much (and more) right to play for it as anyone.)

nyc-steelers fan said...

I agree with you for the most part, Big Smitty, and I've said as much before. It's not just about the networks making money, cmfost. The big-time conferences and university presidents and bowl committee chairmen have more power under the present scenario; the networks are their lapdogs, willing to bid on a flawed system. The only way to get an incremental change is to make sure the big-teim conferences and bowls still make their money.

That's why I think, given the set up, that a four team playoff, with the two semifinal games rotating among the four big sites, is the only way to make it happen (ndyanks proposal on this thread, although I've said as much earlier this year as well). The 6 power conferences and the Rose/Sugar/Orange/Fiesta are moneymakers, and by rotating the natl game, they insure themselves of one super-duper big game every four years. If they did the rotation deal, they could get a playoff game, which would be almost as huge, every two years.

Shanoff is right though, in terms of picking the 4th team for the playoffs would be also controversial. Well, there is really no way of being without controversy with a 119 team field and a 12 game regular season. And you've got to keep the other 20 some bowl games for the same reason (moolah). I think the 4 game playoff is sellable as a way to generate money for the big bowls and conferences without risking the money that the small bowls reap (I know, ideally we wouldn't have a computers bowl in Boise, or a low of the others, but we do, and they got money behind them, and they can bring in december dollars to boise and honolulu and mobile, and so they're not going to go away as long as networks are willing to throw a few dollars their way to put them on TV, just to get a few higher ratings points than they would for the third rerun of the world series of poker 8).

So I say, give us the four team playoff (UF/UM and OSU against... LSU or Louisville), and the other teams can't gripe much, since they wouldn't have been in the NC in the current system, anyway. You'd still get Boise/OU, and USC could get either louisville or LSU, and notre dame could go to UF to play WF in the game noone would care about, and so at least 2 of the games would be of interest.

Anonymous said...

Richard...like I keep saying...it's only one more game. Let Ball finish out the starter and then he can start prepping for his tour of the AFL and CFL.

I disagree about Rivalry Week(s) being unimportant if a playoff system were setup...especially if there was a selection committee picking the other 8 teams (and seeding all 16).

And I don't see CBB teams slacking once they have their conference wrapped up. They start playing for seeding.

jen said...

Henne is going to be back? Gosh, it seems like he's been the QB at UM forEVER! HAHA

I'm not going to bother commenting on Dan's ridiculous comments about his wife's alma mater, thinking Tressel is an ass for not voting, etc, etc. You all have done a fine job and I am looking forward to some great bowl games.

I do not think the Buckeyes will run all over Florida, but I won't be disappointed if that happens! This Buckeye team is a lot stronger that the 'Canes of '02, but I still don't like to predict that because things happen.

GO BUCKEYES!!!

ChrTh said...

So I say, give us the four team playoff (UF/UM and OSU against... LSU or Louisville), and the other teams can't gripe much, since they wouldn't have been in the NC in the current system, anyway.

The current BCS argument proves this doesn't work. Under the old system, Michigan had no chance of playing for a national championship. OSU vs USC, if OSU wins they're the champ, otherwise if Florida beats Louisville(?) they'll likely get the title. Michigan is still griping though.

Teams will always find a reason to gripe. Teams need to learn to take responsibilities for their mistakes.

CMFost said...

I do not think you can have a playoff with less then 8 teams. You have 6 so called power conferences and there Conference Champ in a playoff system should have a shot at the national title. And then you give a chance for a team that may not of one there conference but deserves a shot.

CMFost said...

let me bring up something that I said earlier what would you rather be watching the next 3 weekends

#1 OSU vs. #16 Rugers
#2 Florida vs #15 Virginia Tech
#3 Michigan vs #14 Wake Forest
#4 LSU vs #13 West Virginia
#5 USC vs #12 Arkansas
#6 Louisville vs #11 Notre Dame
#7 Wisconsin vs #10 Oklahoma
#8 Boise State vs #9 Auburn

with the following weekend being the winners of
1v16 vs 8v9
2v15 vs 7v10
3v14 vs 6v11
4v13 vs 5v12

Follow by the semis with the 4 winners of those games


or 0 NCAA games until 12-19 when you get the exciting TCU v Nothern illinois battle

Anonymous said...

Let's talk about that "awesome" regular season.

OhSt. basically played 2 big games: Michigan and Texas. Texas, it turns out, was a fraud, not really a big game. And Michigan is a conference rival. So the regular season is pretty meaningless right now.

Here's how division I-AA does it:
http://www.i-aa.org/
article.asp?articleid=37174

Anonymous said...

I'd rather wait and watch a cold OSU team (7 weeks off) and a cold UF (5 weeks off) play for the national title.

Anonymous said...

Let's tally the votes of the Dan Shanoff commenters to come up with the two best teams in the country! Makes about as much sense as the current system.

But hey - it's generating "controversy," which is somehow "good" for college football! So yeah, it's got that going for it.

Long live the NFL playoffs!!!

Anonymous said...

@solomonrex:

And I-AA does it right IMO.

Let the 6 BCS conference get auto-bids and have a selection committee pick the other 10 schools, based on CBB-type criteria.

Biff said...

Teams will always find a reason to gripe. Teams need to learn to take responsibilities for their mistakes.

Yeah... Boise State needs to take responsibility for being in a non-BC$ conference and/or for putting weak OOC teams on their schedule five years ago like:

Sacramento State
Oregon State (Wait, they beat who? USC? Oh.)
Utah (What? they were undefeated only two years ago and went to a BCS bowl?)
Hawaii (They have the one of the best QBs in the nation?)

Yeah... whatever.

Biff said...

@tbender

11 conference auto-bids (all conferences) and 5 at-large bids either selected by committee OR by the BC$ rankings regardless of conference.

Why not give all conferences an automatic bid? If they are really as weak as everybody says, it will make good warm-up games for the top seeds.

Anonymous said...

Biff, I know you're a small conference guy, but come on.

When you have the 99th most difficult schedule in the country, your best win is Oregon State, and you beat San Jose State by 3 ... well, just be glad you're even in a BCS game to begin with.

nooch said...

i just read an interview with meyer that says he had asked to not partake in the vote once as well...i guess they are all asshats at some point.

Todd Ching said...

I have a suggestion that cures this all.

Here's what I gather:

1) No one outside of Michigan really wants to see them play Ohio St. again
2) No one really thinks Florida played well enough to be in the National Championship game, at least in most years, right? That they're only in because they played in the (allegedly) hardest conference, had the toughest schedule, not that they were the 2nd best.

So? Don't play a National Championship game, declare Ohio St. the winner.

Does anyone really think they're not the best team in the nation? Seriously, in my mind (for the record, my team is in the ACC), even if Florida or Michigan beat OSU, Ohio St. is still the best team in the nation.

Seems fair to me. Now, can we move on? Well, at least I will...

For instance, that Reggie Bush kid, he could actually be pretty good.

-Todd (Boston)

Brian in Oxford said...

What exactly are the by-laws that say Michigan and Florida can't schedule a game for Dec. 17th....winner gets OSU, loser gets USC?

If I had $25 million, I'd offer it up right now to get a game like that on. Is the NCAA going to sue? Ha!

ChrTh said...

@biff,

My mistake. I should've mentioned that Boise State was an obvious exception.

Anonymous said...

Just wanted you to know that wisconsin did have Virginia Tech and Oregon State as non conference games scheduled this year but both teams backed out in the last few years.

H said...

@Ed

Just a point of clarification here, I was in no way trying to shoot down your argument bro. I was seriously trying to understand it. I'm not a huge CFB guy and frankly whether they have a playoff or polls makes no nevermind to me. I don't know enough about how the polls work to speak intelligently about if scenario A happens then it will affect teams b & c and so forth. I was just tryin to get a clear picture of how you saw things.

You are obviously against the playoff idea, but also say that you don't like the polls either. So I guess I was wondering if you had a siggestion for how it should be done...

Anonymous said...

Something interesting that I've gone back and done with the ladder ranking, just for some informational purposes. I've taken the top 25 ladder teams (so far) and found the average rating score of their opponents. These were found using the simple formula of adding together all the ratings of the teams played this season and dividing the total by the number of games played.

1) Ohio State -- 995.9
2) Oklahoma -- 884.3
3) Louisville -- 1071.8
4) Boise State -- 863.5
5) Florida -- 1085.9
6) LSU -- 1082.0
7) Virginia Tech -- 947.2
8) Wisconsin -- 825.0
9) Brigham Young -- 887.8
10) Michigan -- 1140.3
11) Wake Forest -- 882.0
12) USC -- 1159.6
13) West Virginia -- 1018.6
14) Notre Dame -- 1035.7
15) Auburn -- 981.7
16) Rutgers -- 1005.3
17) Tennessee -- 1117.5
18) Oregon State -- 1127.1
19) TCU -- 865
20) Hawaii -- 925.8
21) Houston -- 853.3
22) Arkansas -- 1031.3
23) Texas A&M -- 933.4
24) Central Michigan -- 919.2
25) Rice -- 953

Who had the toughest schedule out of the top 25 ladder teams? USC, Michigan, Oregon State, Tennessee, Florida, in that order.

ChrTh said...

Anyone else find it funny that Dan lambasted Tressel (again), yet the site he linked to, FanIQ, gave Tressel mad props?

setherton22 said...

@chrth and big d:

Re: your convo on academics, football and minorites.

Then congrats are in order to Anthony Gonzales of Ohio State for making Academic All-American!

http://ohiostatebuckeyes.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/113006aaa.html

Interesting that the Big 10 lead all conferences in Academic AAs with 11. Of course, while one can argue all day over whether Big 10 or SEC schools are better on the field, there's no argument which schools are better academically...

setherton22 said...

Vanderbilt notwithstanding...

ChrTh said...

Vanderbilt notwithstanding...


Yeah, I was going to say ...

Although I believe the ACC has all of the major conferences trumped in academics. IIRC, the reason West Virginia was never considered for the expansion was due to their academic standing.

Jingoist said...

Greg Oden not dominating enough? Okay, pretend you're a coach of a major D-1 hoops program. Would you pass on 14/10/5 (pts/reb/blks) from your star frosh's college debut? If he posts those numbers every game, they'll take it.

Conspiracy Theory #99188: Oden is "saving" himself for the NBA. Knowing he's a lock for #1 next year, Oden simply "mails it in" and throws up only double doubles every game of his short collegiate career to go with half a dozen blocks every game because he's simply bored, but tries to avoid injury.

Anonymous said...

Odd that Vandy is also the only SEC team to never be on NCAA probation, isn't it?

They just ain't trying hard enough.

Anonymous said...

Someone's always going to be left out. Doesn't matter if you have a playoff or stick with the current system. The advantage of a playoff, however, is that you are getting the best 2 or 3 or 4 teams every year. Who cares if you have problems with the difference between 8 & 9, or 16 & 17?

And I don't really care about the Tressel thing, either. The "he voted every other week" argument is BS, in my opinion. It's only the final poll that matters. Florida jumping Michigan proves that point. It would have been great for him to say, "I think that this team is the 2nd-best, and I want to play them," but he didn't. He doesn't want to create bulletin-board material. Who can blame him?

Ed said...

h--

I never wrote that I didn't like the current poll system for determing who plays for the DI college championship. What I did write, or meant to write however unclearly, is that it really doesn't matter whether the last two teams standing are determined by a seasonlong polling system or an end-of-season tournament.

Michigan may be better than Florida, but that doesn't mean Michigan would beat Florida if the teams played. Such a game would [produce a result and be awfully fun to watch, but the winner wouldn't have a claim to anything beyond the victory.

The victory would be important, but it would just mean one team played better in one game, or got more calls, or had fewer injuries.

What I want o see is for everyone to stop railing about the need for fairness in the system. No system will produce a fair result 100% of time.

jen said...

@chrth~
yes, that is very funny.

Congrats to Anthony Gonzalez!!

CMFost said...

Here is a problem with the NCAA if Florida wins and they might actually do it they are not necessarily going to be the undisputed champion there senarios where the AP could name it own champion and might do just to say screw you to the BCS if Ohio State loses

Kevin said...

So, according to your logic, Dan...if you play the #1 team in the country, you can't get into the national championship game (assuming you lose). Wouldn't that be the end of our great regular season matchups? (i.e. OSU-Texas this year)

ChrTh said...

AP could name it own champion

Don't see how it's possible. Like I worked out earlier, Florida > Ohio State > Michigan > Wisconsin is based solely on head-to-head. The AP is supposed to be journalists and therefore possess journalistic integrity. Because OSU beat Michigan earlier this season, I don't see any scenario where the AP can legitimately choose to make someone besides the championship game winner their national champion.

Jo Fer said...

I think UM is a better team than Florida...BUT....

I want to see Florida play OSU. It will provide more clarity on the remaining top ten. (Michigan will show how 'good' USC really is, and OSU how 'good' the "SEC's best" is)

H said...

@Ed

Totally agree. Nothing is ever 100% perfect or fair. Although it has made for an interesting debated and reading topic to help pass my work day. lol

I also agree with the point that other people have made that as long as the BCS bowls are as lucrative as they are currently, there is no motivation to change the system, even if it would make more money in the end. Kinda like the bird in the hand is better than two in the bush theory. As far as the schools making all the loot off these games are concerned, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Chaddogg said...

Here's the rub on the FL-UM issue:

If the ONLY official poll in college football was at the end of the season, Michigan has almost no gripe. Half of the Michigan argument is that they did nothing the past two weeks to get penalized and fall behind Florida - well, if there are no real polls until the end of the season, then that argument is out the window.

Florida-OSU is the better game, avoiding the possible headache of 3 national champions if OSU-Michigan had played again and Michigan beat them (OSU and Michigan both claim the title by virtue of their 1-1 record v. each other, Florida by rationale of not getting to play either and only having 1 loss)

setherton22 said...

The following universities play D-1A football and are members of the AAU, which is a consortium of top research and graduate institutions in America (essentially this will tell you what the best academic universities are among D-1).

Public Universities

University of Arizona (1985)
University at Buffalo, The State University of New York (1989)
University of California, Berkeley (1900)
University of California, Los Angeles (1974)
University of Colorado at Boulder (1966)
University of Florida (1985)
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (1908)
Indiana University Bloomington (1909)
University of Iowa (1909)
Iowa State University (1958)
University of Kansas (1909)
University of Maryland, College Park (1969)
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor (1900)
Michigan State University (1964)
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities (1908)
University of Missouri–Columbia (1908)
University of Nebraska–Lincoln (1909)
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey (1989)
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (1922)
The Ohio State University (1916)
University of Oregon (1969)
The Pennsylvania State University (1958)
University of Pittsburgh (1974)
Purdue University (1958)
University of Texas at Austin (1929)
Texas A&M University (2001)
University of Virginia (1904)
University of Washington (1950)
University of Wisconsin–Madison (1900)


Private universities

Duke University (1938)
Northwestern University (1917)
Rice University (1985)
Stanford University (1900)
Syracuse University (1966)
Tulane University (1958)
University of Southern California (1969)
Vanderbilt University (1950)

By conference:

Big Ten - 11
PAC 10 - 7
Big 12 - 7
ACC - 4
Big East - 3
SEC - 2
Conf USA - 2
MAC - 1

Mikepcfl said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ndyanksfan05 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ndyanksfan05 said...

I dont buy that list - ND is not on there and they are consistently considered a top twenty university in the nation (D-I or otherwise). There are probably a bunch of other schools omitted from that list if I noticed one immediately.

Dan Mega said...

This is just more proof that the NFL has a far surperior system and league than the NCAA does.

With the exception of last year's Superbowl, the best team always wins.

setherton22 said...

The AAU is for excellence in research and graduate education, which larger schools (see D-I universities) tend to excel at. There are many other schools that are excellent that are not members of the AAU.

Perhaps ND due to its independent nature chose not to apply for membership. ND does seem to tailor more to the undergradute education, and it is definitely a great school. But I didn't arbitrarily make up this list, you can look up the AAU yourself. And Harvard, Yale, Princeton, et al., are also in the AAU...

It is true, however, that the SEC schools as a whole are not as selective or as prestigious nationally as Big Ten and PAC 10 schools.

ndyanksfan05 said...

No argument there...

ndyanksfan05 said...

In regards to ND...not going there with the SEC/Big Ten

Todd Ching said...

@Setherton

BC isn't on that AAU list (you provided) either, and we traditionally have one of the highest graduation rates among football players, and certainly are a competitive (Top 50 US News rankings).

I don't get the point of your list either, if it's aimed at graduate studies/research, when we're discussing undergrad.

-Todd (Boston)

marcomarco said...

Holy frickin crap. I ain't reading 400 comments, let alone 178. Can we start breaking up the topics please? All this BCS stuff gives me a headache.

Sheldiz said...

college basketball rankings are up... florida dropped to 7, georgetown is out, g-tech is 25 in one poll and out completely in another. UCLA is number 1.

sorry if this is a repeat, i stopped reading about the BCS after comment 120. :)

Mikepcfl said...

I stopped reading all the posts too.

I saw the College BB poll and was shocked the pollsters didnt listen to Dan and keep OSU #1. (j/k)

Actually, I'm shocked Maryland is still in the Top 25, I got excited about them too soon.

joey said...

Okay, lets say that Michigan played Ohio State and Florida played Auburn on the last weekend of the regular season. I'm sure that, even if Michigan was ranked 3 and Florida 2, and Florida lost to Auburn and Michigan to Ohio State (as happened), Michigan would be ranked second. Schedule had everything to do with this predicament.

Mike said...

Anyone else watching MNF? It sounds like the Philly fans finally woke the real Kornheiser up.

rafael said...

AAU is grad school.

Like with many academic rankings, it's tailored to support one part of academia when it comes to grant money. hehe

Miami University (sigh..of Ohio) is one of the top undergraduate public universities... we're proud of that and are not big into the research. But if you compare undergrads...we're tops in Ohio. :)


and 2-10 in football. boo

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JeterIs#1 said...

Good article at Withleather.com about Phil Simm's youngest kid, Matt. Gotta read, its pretty funny, already hate the kid and it only took 200 words.