Sunday, December 03, 2006

CFB Debate of the Year: Florida or Michigan?
(330-Plus Comments and Counting...)

Update: Coaches poll is out. Florida is No. 2, Michigan is No. 3. In an interesting note, Jim Tressel asked to abstain, which I think is completely fraudulent. Don't accept the privilege of affecting the sport, week-in and week-out, then cop out in the one week when it matters most. I hope he's never allowed to participate in the coaches' poll again.

ORIGINAL POST: I'm hesitant to start a new post about the Michigan-Florida debate, because the post from Saturday has generated more than 330 contributions, shattering the previous total and making it the most commented-on post ever for this blog. (I highly recommend scrolling down and checking it out.)

But it's a new day, and everyone has had a chance to sleep on the decision: Florida or Michigan?

If you were a voter, who would YOU rank No. 2? What SHOULD they do? What's fair? What's right? What's best for college football? What's best to determine the right team to play for this year's title?

There is a particularly compelling angle: Should "Michigan had their chance" be considered a legitimate argument for Florida? If you think Michigan is the unquestioned No. 2 team in the country, probably not. But they're not, and I think "had their chance" isn't nearly as illegitimate as some might be arguing.

(I wonder if Kirk Herbstreit - who made the most impassioned and high-profile plea against the "had their chance" argument last night -- would be saying the same thing if, hypothetically, Florida was unbeaten, and Ohio State was a 1-loss Big Ten champ vying for a spot in the national title game versus 1-loss LSU, runner-up in the SEC and a team Florida had already beaten.)

The other thing Michigan backers are saying -- including Lloyd Carr -- is that Michigan shouldn't be penalized for not playing the last two weeks. I think that's bogus. That would mean that your biggest ranking criteria is "inertia."

There is no evidence that Michigan is anything but the same team that ended the season two weeks ago. However, since then, there is new evidence that Florida should be considered and weighted better than they were two weeks ago.

In other words, forget the number of the ranking next to Michigan's name two weeks ago or last week. With the entire body of work from the season now in place for both teams, has Florida proven itself better than Michigan -- or more worthy to play Ohio State for the title? I argue yes.

Here's the best news for BCS-haters: It's the best-case scenario to trigger some kind of change to the system. (But don't hold your breath. And don't expect a playoff to fix the type of controversy we're having now: Picking one team over another -- whether it's "Who's Number 2?" today or "Which team coming out of four bowls should be in the Plus-One title game?" or "Who's snubbed in a 4- or 8-team playoff?" there will always be controversy.)

Anyway, I digress: Michigan or Florida?

(By the way, there's a very easy way to deliver justice: Provided that the team picked for the BCS title game beats Ohio State -- iffy on so many levels -- and the team snubbed for the title game wins its bowl game, the AP can simply vote to award its share of the title to the snubbed team, like they did with USC following the 2003 season.)

Oh, and one more thing: As mentioned on the comment board below, it's going to be absolutely fascinating to see how the various Harris poll and coaches' poll (and even the AP poll, though that doesn't count toward the BCS) voters did their ballots. Who has which team number 2? (And are there any shenanigans where they don't rank Michigan and Florida in some combo at No. 2 and No. 3? Any other pick should obliterate that voter's future as a pollster.) I would imagine that there will be great incentive for rogue pollsters -- Harris poll, probably -- to vote some crazy stuff if only to make themselves the story. I cannot wait to see the data.

209 comments:

1 – 200 of 209   Newer›   Newest»
ChrTh said...

There's only one team that deserves to be ranked #2.

Boise State.

Ma4tt (the 4 is silent) said...

I'd love to see Boise State ranked number 2, but as DS says: if any voter actually does it, they should be stripped of their voting duties immediately.

Right now, my best guess is that Michigan will get a rematch, and that they'll win. I just don't think Florida had enough "pretty" wins, i.e. no "style" points. Even Michigan's *loss* was impressive.

I can't wait for the announcement this evening. I'm more excited about it than any of the NFL games today.

nep1293 said...

There is no team that has a right to complain when they are left out, every single 1 loss team out there could have avoided crossing their fingers if they just won that 1 game. OSU took care of their business and they have nothing to worry about.

I think Michigan is the better team so if that's the criteria then I vote them. However, since a Michigan W over Ohio St would cause even more controversy then Florida should be the pick. OSU can pound them and everyone will just agree that they would have beaten anyone they played. No arguments either way

Ma4tt (the 4 is silent) said...

Yeah, but you can't pick Florida just to save the BCS system (in case Michigan beats OSU). That's just a ridiculous idea. The point is to pick the best two teams....

TF said...

ChrTh said...
There's only one team that deserves to be ranked #2.

Boise State.



I'm SURE every OHio State fan wants to see Boise State. Just hand them the damn National Title,

ChrTh said...


I'm SURE every OHio State fan wants to see Boise State. Just hand them the damn National Title,


Uh, that's pretty much what would happen with Florida at #2 as well. The only team that matches up well against OSU is Wake Forest. And no, I'm not kidding.

scar tissue said...

I want Florida to get in then get absolutely rocked. What will your excuse be then Fagoff?

ChrTh said...


There is no team that has a right to complain when they are left out, every single 1 loss team out there could have avoided crossing their fingers if they just won that 1 game.


Boise State has the right to complain, because they didn't lose that 1 game.

scar tissue said...

"I'd personally cast a vote in favor of Florida. I agree that a team should win its conference title to play for the national title. I don't like the idea of putting the best team in America in double jeopardy against an opponent it already has beaten. " - Pat Forde

Again another reason that has NO bearing on who is the best #2 team.

Michigan has no chance at #2, NONE.

scar tissue said...

So Dan if Michigan had schedule Michigan Tech and North Dakota the last two you'd reward them?

And Bob Ryan made a great point : The SEC is the best conference because they say the are?

AND isn't LSU widely regarded as the best SEC team and they weren't even in the championship game.

scar tissue said...

And barely getting by Vanderbilt, South Carolina (complete gift win) and FSU doesn't lend itself well to the "Florida is #2" argument.

Kinda forgot this point huh Dan?

And this is your WIFE's team girly man.

TF said...

Go ahead and say Ohio State would rock Florida. Who has Ohio State beaten? Michigan. Texas. Penn State.

Ohio State is hands down #1, but they aren't so accomplished that they'll roll anyone they face.

Joe (Dayton)

ChrTh said...


AND isn't LSU widely regarded as the best SEC team and they weren't even in the championship game.


LSU could argue that the scheduling didn't favor them, as both their losses were on the road. Granted, that doesn't give them an excuse as to why they're not in the SEC Champ Game, but at the same time, I'd take LSU over any SEC team on a neutral field.

TF said...

SEC an Overrated conference? As an SEC fan I'll admit, we do get the benefit in most years. However, how the HECK is the SEC overrated this year? Who would be better? Lets compare the Big 10 and SEC.

We're 9-6 against the BCS, while the Big 10 is 7-6.

We're 40-7 out of conference, while the Big 10 is 33-11.

We've got 4 teams with 10 wins.

Big 10 has 3.

We've got 9 bowl eligible teams

The Big 10 has 7.

We've got 8 teams with WINNING records.

The Big 10 has 5.

Our worst bowl eligble team, ranked 9th in conference (Alabama) beat Hawaii

The 5th ranked team in Big 10 (Purdue) lost to Hawaii.

We have 0 losses to D-IAA

The Big 10 has 2.

Now where exactly is the SEC overrated this year?

Joe (Dayton)

scar tissue said...

Sagarin still has UM #2 Florida #3 by over a point......


You better pray the humans use the "had their shot" logic.

It looks like, gulp, the computers are the only ones to be trusted in this debate.

scar tissue said...

The SEC this year might be the greatest conference in the history of College Ball. Shit maybe even in pro football. The 5th ranked SEC team would at least get a wild card berth in the NFL right.

CrumbBum said...

Florida has the #1 strength of schedule, so you can't knock them or the SEC. Bob Ryan is an idiot, listen to the numbers. And I don't think you knock Florida for winning ugly because that's how their team is built. OSU did the same thing in 2002 when they won the championship. The point is, Florida has played a tough schedule and lost only once.

Ma4tt (the 4 is silent) said...

scar tissue has some anger management issues. Did DS pour some sugar in your gas tank or something?

Michigan is the 2nd best team in the country. That's it. I don't think there's much debate about it... so bring on the rematch.

ChrTh said...

While I don't deny the SEC is a better conference top-to-bottom than the Big 10, I find the following criteria silly:

"Our worst bowl eligble team, ranked 9th in conference (Alabama) beat Hawaii

The 5th ranked team in Big 10 (Purdue) lost to Hawaii."

That's all well and good, until you remember that Purdue played at Hawaii and Hawaii played at Alabama, but hey, why let facts get in the way of good rhetoric, right?

Anonymous said...

As a Michigan fan, I think Florida has to go, for the simple reason that I don't want to hear millions of SEC fans bitch and whine about how they got screwed.

Careful what you wish for, Gator fans. Between the penalties, bumbling QB, and ridiculous turnovers (a SHOVEL PASS intercepted??!), it's not looking good.

Anonymous said...

I forget, is a 3 point win worth more than a 10 point win?? A win is a win is a win. There are so many f'n variable that go into a game that make the final score what it is. A team could have a bad day. People get injured. Turnovers happen. Crappy calls (talk to the Sooners about this.) At the end of the day all that should matter is if you get a "w", not what the final score is. If that is the critera, I still like UF's resume over UM's. UM's people one team of note: Wisc (ND is waaaaaaaaaaaaay overrated). Go read the article on espn about why UF should get in. They are all FACTS. Its sad we have to debate who had the better "loss".

scar tissue said...

As a SEC fan....

How good are these teams really, based on body of work this year, not name, tradition and fan base:

Alabama
Georgia
Kentucky
South Carolina
Vanderbilt
Ole Miss
Miss St.

????

Auburn - Lost TWICE at HOME!
Tennessee is a "nice" team. A nice bounceback but do they scare you? No.

I'll give you Ark, Florida and LSU are good teams.

Yet as we've seen two weeks in a row, get Arkansas down and they are woefully one dimensional. I'd argue Florida's win over them is diluted. By having PLAYED the last two weeks Arkansas has been exposed as overrated.

Anonymous said...

"The SEC this year might be the greatest conference in the history of College Ball."

The fact that the conference has a bunch of quality teams doesn't mean anything if Michigan and OSU are better than any of them.

scar tissue said...

and tf here's a good example for you.

USC lambasted Arkansas AT ARK, one of the SEC's supposed power teams.

UCLA and Oregon St beat USC.

If they played in the SEC, UCLA and Oregon St would be the 2nd and 3rd best teams in the conference!!!!

You see how silly that sounds. Now you and the rest of Fagoff's zombies should stop using it as a coherent argument.

scar tissue said...

schedule strength.....

is their one uniform ranking?

I ask because Sagarin has Michigan with a stronger schedule rank.

ChrTh said...


schedule strength.....

is their one uniform ranking?


There's one that is typically used, however, the computers each have their own, I believe.

scar tissue said...

throwing out fan passion, which team or conference was recently screwed, tradition, etc....

Who has a better chance to beat Ohio St. on a neutral field.

Michigan or Florida. THAT IS THE QUESTION.

Using logic like "had their chance" and "don't want a rematch" does make any sense is answering that question.

Look at the teams.

Michigan already having played OSU HELPS THEIR CAUSE! They would have a great chance on a neutral field.

After watching Florida can you objectively say they matchup well with OSU and that they would play a close game and have a chance to win? I really don't think they would.

Florida's jive offense wouldn't work, sorry but it wouldn't. Have Leak make all those TO's and OSU will turn them into TD after TD.

TF said...

Scar,

Three Pac 10 teams were destroyed by SEC schools.

Tennessee 35 - Cal 18
LSU 45 - Arizona 3
Auburn 40 - Wazzou 14

So no, UCLA wouldn't be 3 or 4 in teh SEC.

USC could probably compete for the SEC title, but hands down this year

SEC > The remainder.

scar tissue said...

alright then why is the one that says Florida has a better SOS the gospel over the one that has Michigan with a better SOS?

Steve said...

Look, are any Florida whiners going to give back their 96 championship because they shouldn't have had a rematch? No! So no bitching if Michigan gets a rematch, it's just karma.

scar tissue said...

Cal is decent, AZ and Washington are AWFUL, bad to use for an example.

And my quote about Ore. st and UCLA being ranked high in the SEC was just an example of how your transitive property bullshit is silly.

scar tissue said...

Michigan doesn't have a prayer for being #2, all because of faulty logic.

I don't think it will be close in the voting.

Then Florida will get smoked in the title game and we'll all feel cheated.

TF said...

The rematch has been explained 100 times. The 1996 title needed A LOT of help, we fell from #1 to #4, not to #2 like Michigan did.

scar tissue said...

sorry but reverse WR option's ain't gonna work in the title game.

scar tissue said...

Urban Myer used the "they had their shot" and "the country wants to see us play OSU" as his logic for Florida getting the #2 spot.

That is laughable and sad.

Kasko said...

Good point Steve.

Oh, I think Tommie Frazier just scored again too.

scar tissue said...

"Id take our defense over anyone else in the country and about a third of the nfl. " (in regards to Florida's defense)

This was from the previous thread. This is the kind of logic being used by Florida fans.

The Arizona Cardinals and Detroit Lions would smash Florida's defense.

Any NFL team would destroy and college team.

I'm speechless.

TF said...

Scar,

I don't think any Florida fan would believe our defense would even hang in the NFL.

Joe (Dayton)

scar tissue said...

go re-read the full comment, I didn't make it up. I think its the second from the bottom or was earlier.

ChrTh said...


alright then why is the one that says Florida has a better SOS the gospel over the one that has Michigan with a better SOS?


The "gospel" SOS, iirc, is simply based on opponent's won-loss record. The computers use more advanced algorithms that incorporate opponent's opponent's won-loss records, as well as home vs away advantages. Since the latter method(s) are complex and have internal disagreement (ie, the computers don't all use the same formula), the 'easy' method is considered gospel.

scar tissue said...

Anyone who says "they had their chance" as their logic for Florida for #2 shouldn't be taken seriously.

Focus your argument on the teams - on the players.

Not SOS or anything else.

Biff said...

Michigan.

Why? Because if Michigan wins and Boise State wins, the system will be proven as flawed.

Dan, help me understand your concerns with a 16-team playoff. What problems does it create? In my mind, it solves every major problem that has arisen since the BC$ was created. All conferences get their champ in. A few at-larges. Only controversy is seeding, which is fun to argue about but essentially meaningless because if you are really the best, it doesn't matter who you play.

How many of the arguments over the last few years are about who "didn't" get a shot at the championship. With this in mind, why not make sure you dont continue that argument with a 8-team playoff that could still exclude the Boise States of the world? Make sure every conference is given equal access and... Let. Them. Play.

scar tissue said...

fair enough crth

scar tissue said...

a 16 team playoff would be great, could be done and would determine a true championship.

AND IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. A 17 game season? HA, right. NCAA would never allow it.

I've heard interviews with coaches and experts say CFB teams have a hard enough time playing a 12 game season.

pedro said...

I agree that Boise State should be number two. unfortunately, that won't happen.

The answer is right under the NCAA's nose. 16 team playoff. It works beautifully in 1-AA. There would be controversy about the 16th team, but there would be alot less controversy because there are more teams with a shot and realistically the 16th team doesn't have a chance to win the title.

16. Team. Playoff.

NCAA, just look at your "Football Championship Subdivision." When they reneamed it Championship Subdivision, bells should have been going off to show that this is the right way,.

pedro said...

"AND IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. A 17 game season? HA, right. NCAA would never allow it"

Scar tissue, the NCAA allowsa 16 game season. just look at 1AA.

scar tissue said...

Florida is second in penalties in DI, behind only mighty Akron.

And for as "strong" as Florida's offense is, its ranked behind Michigan.

scar tissue said...

I and IAA are night and day pedro.

And Boise St as #2, besides it being a quaint idea what is your backup for this bold statement?

Biff said...

A 17-game season for possibly two teams. That's all. I'm assuming your considering a team that plays in a conference championship. Big deal. How many games does the Super Bowl champ play? How many games does the NCAA basketball champ play? 98% of the teams will still play a 12-13 game season like they do now. Do you hear the NCAA basketball teams that make it to the Elite Eight, Final Four or championship COMPLAINING about how they have to play extra games? Give me a break.

scar tissue said...

We still haven't heard Shanoff give us one stat to back up Florida at #2.

He's used "they had their shot" as the crux of his argument.

That's the best a Harvard B School grad can do?

It's one thing to say you are a sportswriter, another to actually try and do it.

Biff said...

I and IAA are night and day pedro.

How so? The only difference I see is one knows how to crown a true champion, and the other has a bunch of meaningless bowls and controversy each year. Provide a real argument, please.

ChrTh said...

Why I don't think anyone can beat Ohio State in the NC, by Me.

There is talent disparity in college football that is far greater than what you see in the NFL. This is why when a Wake Forest wins the ACC Championship, it becomes huge news. Wake Forest doesn't have the raw talent to compete with the Florida States of this world. If a team is outmatched talent-wise by another team, the only way it can win is essentially through coaching. Coaching is what motivates, creates 'trick' plays, finds way to overcome the talent gap, etc. Occasionally a team will fall victim to its own success--overlooks the opponent, makes stupid turnovers, etc., but generally, whenever we see an upset it's because the lesser team had a better coach. That's why Jim Grobe and Greg Schiano are suddenly hot coaching names--they have demonstrated by their success that they have exceptional coaching ability. Or lots of luck. LOTS of luck. Since luck isn't quantifiable, you have to accept that coaching ability probably plays a large part.

Now, tOSU is going into a NC situation that is the exact opposite of the one they faced against Miami four years ago: they will be favored by a strong amount and will be considered top-to-bottom more talented than the team they'll be playing. Similarly, Miami was favored by a strong amount and was considered top-to-bottom more talented than the team they would be playing.

And Miami WAS more talented top-to-bottom than the Buckeyes. But Ohio State had one advantage: their coach was way better than Miami's coach. Which is why Larry Coker is now looking for a job and Jim Tressel is back in the championship game.

So Jim Tressel has been there. He knows exactly what the other team needs to do to beat his team. And I believe that despite his flaws (he tends to get conservative when he has the lead, and it sometimes allows teams to get back in the game: Illinois and Michigan this season, for example), Jim Tressel will be at least the equal of any coach on the opposite sideline. So if you can't outcoach the more talented team (and yes, the Buckeyes are more talented top-to-bottom than either Florida or Michigan), I don't think you can win, unless you get lucky.

Really, really lucky.

...and yes, I know my position appears biased because I'm an OSU fan. But as someone who watched in horror during the John Cooper Era, believe me when I tell you I know good coaching when I see it.

Troy (Gainesville, FL) said...

Sagarin still has UM #2 Florida #3 by over a point......

But Sagarin has been the computer ranking UF the lowest (along with one other, I think), while there are 2 computers that last week had Florida over Michigan. I think the Computers will be almost dead even. So yeah, still comes down to the voters.

scar tissue said...

The only difference I see is one knows how to crown a true champion, and the other has a bunch of meaningless bowls and controversy each year.

That is the argument! The hypocrisy! DI teams can't do a playoff because it would be too many games, it would ruin the bowls and the players would miss too much class time. These are the arguments by the powers that be have against a playoff. Yet they don't exist for IAA?

Anonymous said...

Out of the 50 or so comments on here, I've only seen 3 people touch on the idea of a playoff. Who in their right mind doesn't think playoff is the way to go right now?

The BCS does not work. Period. All we have is people saying "Florida is better" or "Michigan is better" and then making some kind of list to prove their point. Hmmm ... you know a way to determine who is actually better? To settle in on the field! What a novel concept! Some are saying 16 teams, but I say cut it to 8.

Imagine if the NFL pulled this - to let beat writers and computers determine the two best teams in the league, and then have those two play in the Super Bowl? Do you think that shit would fly with NFL fans? I don't think so. This is why the NFL rules American sports and CFB is a joke. And don't give me the whole, "Well people are talking about CFB" crap - people are talking about it because the system is broken.

By the way, I think Michigan is the better team and would give OSU a better game, but I want to see FLA get the nod, if only because I don't want to see a rematch.

The heroin sheik said...

Yeah I said I would take the gator defense over a third of the ones int he nfl. I didnt say we would kick ass or anything just said I think our defense is as good as some in the nfl. GRanted im a bucs fan so I see a shitty product on the field week in and week out. I think the gator defense is at least as good as the ones in tampa on a bad day, cleveland, probably arizona and most likely oakland. LIke Dan im prone to hyperbole, but I stand by my comment that the gators d is as good as some in the nfl. IM not saying we would anchor a playoff team but we would at least keep it respectable.

jhawkjjm said...

I have no idea who the better team is between Florida and Michigan. But I think that Florida's beat better teams all year long than Michigan did. In my opinion, the SEC is deeper than the Big 10, and I'm a Big 12 person so no bias either way.

Would Florida beat Michigan on a nuetral field... maybe. Personally, as a fan of the game, I don't want to see a rematch, but at the same time I cannot say that Michigan is clearly better than Florida and more deserving. I'm just glad I'm not a voter in this situation because they are going to be scrutinized like never before.

scar tissue said...

"Yeah I said I would take the gator defense over a third of the ones int he nfl"

Damn, I was ready to give you a pass and think it was just a drunken rambling.

If you believe this then there's not way for you to be objective with anything involving Florida.

Your statement might just be the most outlandish ever on this blog and that is saying something.

Biff said...

-worldwide

Here's the problem with a 8-team playoff... the polls. Because the BC$ has created two-tiered system the polls are unfair. Boise State is ranked 11th(?) in the BC$ formulas. You still are going to leave certain conferences out of the picture, which is unfair. It would be like having the Big Dance and only having 16 or 32 teams. You're not even including some teams that really deserve a shot. Make it 16-teams and NOBODY can complain. Period.

Please realize I'm looking at it from an "outsider" perspective as a MWC conference fan. The BC$ has created a two-tier system that is absolutely crazy. IF you're not "in the club" you have some serious disadvantages. An eight-team playoff seems two exclusionary for me.

ChrTh said...

I still like the bowl system. What do Playoffs get you? St. Louis Cardinals, 2006 World Champions. Sure, great for the fans in St. Louis, but baseball fans? Playoffs reward those who got hot at the right time (Steelers, Gators). I'm glad there's at least one sport that has eschewed such a system. I like an entire season being counted in the discussion. I love how USC over Arkansas in a rout in Week 1 was almost the deciding factor. I love how UCLA could put a stamp on their season by denying USC a trip to the National Championship. And yeah, the optimist in me loves the fact that half the bowl teams end their season with a victory.

And more importantly, I love the discussions it breeds. How pointless would the 300+ posts in the CFB Tailgate comments have been if there was a playoff? How little fun would it be seeing columnists discuss schmaltzy human interest stories instead of pages after pages of discussion on the system?

But most importantly, how great will it be for Wake Forest to win the Orange Bowl? Sure a playoff could give them a shot at the National Championship, but let's be realistic. Instead of having to fight through a couple rounds only to lose, Wake Forest will be one and done ... or Won and done.

God bless the Bowl System.

pedro said...

scar tissue, Boise State beat every single team on their schedule. I don't care who you play, that's hard to do as evidence by the fact that only two out of 117(?) could do it. If they're name wasn't Boise St then they'd be number two, same goes for Butler basketball, they should be number one based on their record, rpi, and opponents, but their name is Butler, but I digress.

IA and AA aren't that different. The difference is the size of the schools. I don't know how someone can say its a completely different scenario when they are all D1 schools. It gives the best realistic opportunity for the most teams.

ChrTh said...

@worldwide reader:

So I guess you can count me as someone who is against a playoff.

The heroin sheik said...

Personally I wish it would go back to the days of your traditional bowl matchups. You win your conference you go to a specific game. I like the controversy of possibly two teams being worthy of a national championship. It always makes for a good argument. Granted there is something to be said for a definitive answer as to wh is best. Since that is what the majority of people want to see the only way to do it is to have a playoff where all DIV I conference champs get in as well as maybe two or three teams at large from the major conferences. Who cares if they play a few more games. How much school would they really miss. I don't know about the rest of you but college wasn't really that hard. Outside of writing papers most of the learning I did took place inside the classroom and since most football players are required to attend all classes why would this be a problem? I was lit major so maybe that was why I dound it so easy but I guess it is all relative.

The heroin sheik said...

wow most outlandish ever? that is saying something. Id love to see the gators play a game against this years bucs. I don't know who would get more turnovers. Chris leak would probably throw five picks but we would exploit that tampa two since all our dbs are slow as hell and all they can do is get PI's. The gator defense would feast on the ineptitude of chucky's O. Cadillac didn't do much against the gators and alot of the gators d played two years ago. The bucs have a rookie at qb and basically no receivers. Other than joey galloway we could probably man up on the bucs and load the box to stop the run. Difference would come down to the kicking game and since matt bryant has proved he can kick 60+yds and the gators kicker is almost as bad as I would be that would be the what would lose the game for the gators. If you think Im crazy you obviously havent watched much of the bucs this year.

Anonymous said...

Biff, honestly, I don't care about conference representation. I want to see the best 8 teams on the field, period. If 3 of those are from the SEC, and none from the Big East (I'm a PC alum), then so be it. I know that wouldn't work, especially because of the finances, but it would be my ideal system.

You have to have a cut-off somewhere. Before yesterday's games, based on the BCS standings, the playoff would look like this:

1) OSU v 8) Boise St
4) FLA v 5) LSU

2) USC v 7) WISC
3) MICH v 6) L'VILLE

Again, that is based on last week's standings. That looks beautiful to me.

Drunken Loo said...

Can anybody seriously argue that No. 5 - 16 deserve a shot at the NC? Like UCLA last year and say WV this year.

The heroin sheik said...

Interesting playoff other than making the gators play lsu in the first round how about you can't have rematches in the opening round of the playoff. Also how do you pick home field adv. What are the tiebreakers. Too many questions for before breakfast. I need to go buy a paper and gloat over some steak, eggs, and guiness.

Biff said...

I think they playoff system has to do the following (and that is why I think 16-team format is the solution).

1. Any team that goes undefeated in conference, goes to the playoffs.

2. Any team that goes undefeated in the playoffs, wins the championship.

Any format that GUARANTEES this happening for any team out of the 117 teams, works for me. If there is any possibility that 1 or 2 won't happen, it's broke.

The current BC$ system doesn't look at the totality of the season. In fact, it looks at the totality of the last TWO seasons. Boise State is being penalized for where it was ranked week 1 (based on it's performance LAST season). I agree that there are teams that may go undefeated that aren't as good as an Ohio State, but I don't want the polls to dictate that, or a sports write, or a coach. I want that PROVEN on the field. I'm sick of the polls dictating who deserves it or not. Time after time, teams with undefeated seasons have been left out because "somebody" thinks their schedule wasn't strong enough or they didn't belong. Ladies and gentlemen, that is B(C)S.

Geoff-Detroit said...

Any talk about a playoff is really just a waste of typing. It ain't gonna happen. And really, did someone just argue that Florida could give Tampa Bay a game? Ugh... get real.

Anonymous said...

chrth -

I like an entire season being counted in the discussion.

This wasn't the case for for Auburn 2 years ago. Or for Oregon, when they had to watch Nebraska sneaked in after getting hammered by Colorado in the B12 title game, and then watch them again get hammered against Miami in the NC game. Or for USC, when Oklahoma got smacked around by K-St in the B12 title game and still got to play in the NC game, only to lose to LSU. The regular season is NOT a playoff.

And more importantly, I love the discussions it breeds. How pointless would the 300+ posts in the CFB Tailgate comments have been if there was a playoff?

No offense, but this is completely illogical. The 300 comments are entirely meaningless no matter how you look at them - they don't settle anything. Again, people are "talking" because the system is broken. I don't want a system that gets people "talking" - I want a system that produces a champion on the field.

Just please answer this for me: do you think the BCS/Bowl system should be applied to the NFL?

Anonymous said...

"Michigan is the 2nd best team in the country. That's it. I don't think there's much debate about it... so bring on the rematch."

...yeah there certainly seems to be no debate allright!!??!!

Anonymous said...

Biff, generally I am in agreement with you, but I'm going to do something sacreligious on this blog, and that is argue against Boise St.

1. Any team that goes undefeated in conference, goes to the playoffs.

The problem with this is, all conferences are not created equally. Boise St's two best wins this season were against Oregon State and Hawaii. Decent teams, but, come on - nothing too impressive there. They beat a six-loss Wyoming team, at home, by 7, and beat San Jose State by a field goal. If Florida, of all teams, is going to be penalized for lack of "style points," then Boise should, too. The problem I have with these "Cinderellas" is that they don't schedule anybody. They run through their awful conferences undefeated and then scream out that they deserve a chance too. Well, who did you actually beat? Look at Boise's schedule - they didn't beat anybody.

Anonymous said...

"Then Florida will get smoked in the title game and we'll all feel cheated."

- We would all be cheated if Ohio St. smokes Michigan in the title game

(all that would prove is that they are better than Michigan - which we already KNOW because they just beat them the LAST game they played!!!!)

Troy (Gainesville, FL) said...

This year is a perfect situation to try to convince you, Dan, of how even a 4-team playoff is far superior to the current system.

1OSU v. 4?
2UF v. 3Michigan

There's a controversy over who #4 is. So what? That's certainly better than a controversy over #2--two more teams are included. And, as I've mentioned before, I can't think of a year when more than 3-4 teams had a legitimate argument for getting to play for the title.

So this year, instead of having to leave out either Florida or Michigan--two supremely deserving teams--we would be arguing about whether to include Louisville, USC, Oklahoma, or maybe even LSU.

And for all the people who (for some reason) think OSU would murder UF, you surely think they'd murder whoever got named #4, and if they couldnt then how could we name them national champ anyway?

Personally I see this as the only realistic option, with a +1 being the only other possible substitute. The current system only works when no system is required, and you'd never get the ADs to agree on an 8-team deal.

JeterIs#1 said...

HAHAHA, Florida would lose by 50 to Tampa Bay. Get real, you are basically saying EVERY Florida player will not only get drafted into the NFL but be a starter. Monty Kiffin would stuff those WR reverse option crappy plays you guys run every time for 10 yard losses. You must be smokin some good stuff a little early in the morning to be thinkin that my friend.

nep1293 said...

You could make an all star team of College kids and they couldn't beat an NFL team. There is no team in College football who wouldn't lose by 20+ points to the Detroit Lions or the Bucs.

A playoff is perfect, everyone knows it. What are the only arguments in NCAA BB at tourney time? who got snubbed at being a 12 seed. That's a lot better than seeing the wrong team in the Title Game.

What would have happened if Michigan doesn't get that personal foul and beats OSU? I'm pretty sure 99% of fans would agree to give OSU a rematch. So the rematch theory doesn't really fly with me.

JeterIs#1 said...

As for a playoff, I am as big a fan as there is for a playoff but the truth is that it would take away from the regular season, A LOT. I am also a big college basketball fan and try to watch as many games as often as my schedule allows but until February I never really go out of my way to watch it.
College football on the other hand I don't care whats going on I always try to schedule around the big games. If I know that whoever wins the Mich/OSU regular season game is still going to make the 16 team playoff, I really don't care that much because they aren't going to be showing the other team any of there stuff. Much like a week 16 game between the Colts/Broncos.
Is giving up the greatest regular season in any sport worth it when you get one of the greatest playoff systems. I would say "yes" but I'm not totally sold. What if Wake Forest knocked off OSU and got to the nat'l championship against LSU. Would that really be THAT great??? Not saying that would happen but I think no matter what happens you are going to have mixed results. I would rather have watched the USC/Texas game last year than a potential Wake/LSU game this year. And YES that could happen if there was a playoff.

Anonymous said...

Remember a couple years ago when Ohio State went to the championship against Miami. Every game they played was close, there was no style points Granted they never lost but, they beat the teams they had too. Plus Greg Krenzel was their quarterback thats a handicap right their. Chris Leak handicap. done and done put them in the championship

JeterIs#1 said...

If you respond by saying that Wake couldn't do that, then answer me what is the point of having a playoff. You want a playoff so everyone has a shot and its not a defacto 1 v. 2, so no one come back saying that Wake can't beat OSU or Mich. b/c then you are just saying that a playoff wouldn't matter and 1 v. 2 would still advance to the Nat'l championship

JeterIs#1 said...

I should get a trophy for being the best poster on this board. Dan u need an assistant I'm here for ya man!

Richard said...

So if Ohio State loses the championship game can Boise State claim to be the national champions?

In other news: I hate Reggie Ball. 9 of 26 passing with 2 interceptions. The sad part is that's his best performance in almost a month. Meanwhile GT defense allows 17 points in two weeks and loses both games.

Boise State to Glendale or the BCS is a mockery. (As if it isn't already)

Anonymous said...

For anyone who argues that a playoff system doesn't work - I spent the day yesterday in the freezing cold at McGuirk Almuni Stadium for an College Football PLAYOFF game and let me tell you - it was glorious.

For all the argument that a playoff would effect school and class time for the players - apparently that only applies to the major programs since the NCAA has no problem with those "other" Division 1 football programs having a playoff which has become so popular that ESPN is televising the games.

Oh by the way - Go UMass!

Justin said...

"I have no idea who the better team is between Florida and Michigan."|

Liar. Yes you do, it just defeats your argument.

Biff said...

@Worldwide

This is what ticks me off... I'm not necessarily saying that all conferences AREN'T made equal, but it's the dumbest argument ever. If that's the case, who cares, but the weak conferences in the playoff and give them the lower seeds... but at least when they actually play, we can finally see that Boise State isn't better or, possibly, that they are.

Here's a great example. The Big East. Everybody says how strong they are this year. In fact three teams (Louisville, Rutgers, West Virginia) all have losses in their conference, but are ranked higher than BYU a conference champion with NO conference losses. Is the Big East better than the MWC. Perhaps. The standard argument is "Who has BYU played?" Well, who has the Big East Three played? Nobody. Just each other. The Big East is taking advantage of one of the greatest weaknesses in college football... the polls.

The Big East manipulated their schedules so that their three strongest teams didn't play until the last half of the year. By that time they were all ranked, but when they played each other, they helped catapult each other higher in the rankings.

If BYU, Utah, and TCU hadn't played each other until the last half of the season, all three would have probably been ranked when they played each other and would be ranked higher now then they are currently are.

Anyways, you may are not believe that, but the fact is the polls introduce a huge bias. If you aren't ranked in the top 25 at the beginning of the season, you aren't going to get a SNIFF at the national championship if you go undefeated. That gives way too much control to the media and the coaches. The polls should be interesting, but shouldn't determine the national championship. College BB is a great example. Polls are merely interesting and help determine seeding, but the playoff determines the champion.

Look at the NFL. No polls period. Everything is determined by wins, losses, tie-breakers, and a playoff. As has been postulated here, can you imagine if a BC$-style formula was used to determine who was in the Super Bowl. Ridiculous.

Worldwide, I just don't like the whole pre-bias of conferences. Maybe they aren't as good, but let's let a game determine that and not exclude a team because we think they may not be as good.

ChrTh said...

Just please answer this for me: do you think the BCS/Bowl system should be applied to the NFL?

Of course not. But there's a huge difference between the two.

The NFL has only 32 teams versus College Football, which has 117.

Also, the NFL has a Salary Cap. College Football doesn't.

Also, the NFL has a 52 (+6) player roster limits. College Football doesn't.

Once College Football implements a Spending Cap, Roster Limits, and cuts down to 64 or fewer teams, then I'll consider a playoff. But until then, the gap between the top 25 schools in CFB and the bottom 25 schools is ridiculous. Heck, the gap between the top 20 twenty and the next twenty is ridiculous.

Wake Forest University has an enrollment of ~4400 students. For them to maintain a roster of 88 football players (average for a college team), that means 1 in every 50 students would have to play football.

Now, before it comes up: College Basketball is OK with a playoff because of the roster sizes. Basketball teams in College have, what, 15 players? Even a school as small as Wake Forest (or unlikely as Oral Roberts) can compete nationally because you only need 15 good players. Doesn't work that way in football.

Josh said...

I'm tired of hearing Urban Meyer preach schedule strength. Numbers can prove anything when played with. Since I had nothing better to do, I did a little number crunching of my own for strength of schedule.

While Florida slightly edges Michigan in direct opponent's win-loss record (.580 to .579), it was pretty interesting to see how their opponents stacked up such a record.

The opponents-opponents record (combined record of opponents of Florida's opponents) was a .518 for Florida as compared to .526 for Michigan. This also included 15 D1-AA schools that Florida's opponents faced as opposed to only six on the Michigan side.

Since a D1-AA win over a D1-A school is very rare, I assumed that each school would have gone 0-11 in D1-A play (a little bit of a stretch I know) and recalculated records. Michigan's opponents-opponents record then dropped to .454, which seems significant until you see that Florida's same calculation dropped all the way to .419.

Urban Meyer is lucky that he can talk SOS when votes are due so soon. If voters could see the whole picture, it wouldn't help Florida's argument.

By the way, the SEC, WAC, Sun Belt, ACC, and C-USA champs all played D1-AA opponents. What a joke.

Aslan said...

There is a myth that the SEC is somehow a great conference. This is nonsense. The SEC is average, without a clearly dominant team such as Michigan or Ohio State. There is a reason that the Vegas line would have both those Big 10 schools over at or over a touchdown favorite against Florida.

Let's use Vanderbilt as an case study.

Look at their schedule against the SEC.

2006-2007 SCHEDULE

Date Opponent / Event Location Time

09/02/06 at Michigan Ann Arbor, Mich. L, 27-7
09/09/06 at Alabama Tuscaloosa, Ala. L, 13-10
09/16/06 vs. Arkansas Nashville, Tenn. L, 21-19
09/23/06 vs. Tennessee State Nashville, Tenn. W, 38-9
09/30/06 vs. Temple Nashville, Tenn. W, 43-14
10/07/06 at Ole Miss Oxford, Miss. L, 17-10
10/14/06 at Georgia Athens, Ga. W, 24-22
10/21/06 vs. South Carolina (Homecoming) Nashville, Tenn. L, 31-13
10/28/06 at Duke Durham, N.C. W, 45-28
11/04/06 vs. Florida Nashville, Tenn. L, 25-19
11/11/06 at Kentucky Lexington, Ky. L, 38-26
11/18/06 vs. Tennessee Nashville, Tenn. L, 39-10

This bad team, on a par with bottom level Big 10 teams, gets appropriately smoked by Michigan and during their season loses to Alabama by 3, Arkansas by 2, Ole Miss by 7, beats Georgia, and loses to Florida by 6. The SEC conference blows. The lose a couple badly (like to Michigan) to South Carolina (who beats Florida except for some kicker bizarro-world) and Tennessee.

Vanderbilt is the perfect bridge to prove the obvious: the SEC looks good because it has no great team. In reality, the SEC is average.

ChrTh said...

I'm intrigued that the UM-UF map on ESPN.com has shifted from 52-48 UM to 50-50. That's a large shift considering how many had been cast when it was 52-48. Is the public turning against a rematch, or is it just people who woke up later more likely to favor Florida?

Perks said...

Florida. Because Michigan would win, and it would make everything horrible.

ChrTh said...

More on the map:

Idaho is no longer split--it now favors Florida 52-48.

Kentucky still reflects the national average.

And Michigan has gone from 90-10 to 89-11. Obviously all the hungover State students have woken up and voted.

Perks said...

chrth, I saw that and thought the same thing.
That, and there are over 405,000 votes. Has there ever been such disparity in the US?! 405 THOUSAND!

john (ann arbor, mi) said...

I have been following the map since it was 65-35.

I think it's the implications of the rematch dawning on people. I wrote a rambling midnight blog post about the whole thing last night; essentially I don't think anybody believed in the rematch before last night, and now we are thinking "oh god, do we want to hear about this for another month, just like last month?" (and furthermore, "wouldn't we rather see the Big Ten face off against the class of the SEC and of the Pac-10?")

They're sobering thoughts.

ChrTh said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ChrTh said...

Most followers of sports are used to championships where two seperate conferences are represented in the final regardless; AFC vs NFC, AL vs NL, East vs West, etc. In College you can have it where both teams are from the same conference playing in the championship, but that's rare except in the less popular sports. College Basketball is obviously an exception, but same-conference championships are rare (I remember 1985 off the top of my head, and that's it).

I think the trend towards Florida reflects this idea; that if the playoffs we're familiar with don't always match the two best teams, why should the BCS?

Josh said...

Why should the BCS match up the two best teams?

Was this not the stated goal of implementing this system?

Would we have had a split championship in 1997 if Michigan had played Tom Osbourne, I mean Nebraska?

I don't think the system works, but you can't tell me it wasn't created to match up the best teams.

ChrTh said...

Coaches' Poll is out:

1. Ohio State (62) 12-0 1,550
2. Florida 12-1 1,470
3. Michigan 11-1 1,444

Theo said...

I have two equally weighted opinions fighting in my mind right now.

1. Why punish OSU by making them play a team they've already beaten, but this time for the title? If they lose, it nullifies their earlier game completely. If they win, it only shows that they're better than Michigan. We already know that. Those thoughts would dictate that Michigan should not go.

2. Michigan is the second-best team in the country right now. I don't think anyone can argue with that. If Florida doesn't recover a fumbled punt in the end zone it's entirely possible that they would have lost to Arkansas. No way are they a better team than Michigan.

I can't reconcile these two thoughts. With the system the way it is right now, I simply can't do it.

Let's just call OSU the champion, have them play Boise State anyway, and let Michigan and Florida play each other. (I know that's an impossibility. I'd just like to see it as a fan.)

Thanks to Biff for supporting the smaller conferences.

ChrTh said...

Analysis of Coaches' Poll:

No one voted UM or UF anything but #2 or #3.

Florida received 44 of the 62 2nd-place votes.
Michigan received 18 of the 62 2nd-place votes.

ChrTh said...

BCS Component Score for the Coaches' Poll:
OSU: 1.000
UF: 0.948
UM: 0.932

ChrTh said...

Oh, and if you think the reason I'm spending time crunching these numbers is because the Packers are losing 17-0 ...

well, you're right.

ChrTh said...

One warning:

I'm getting these numbers off of the ESPN ranking page (the Webmaster there is always first to publish on the main site), however, it looks like they have Oregon tied-25th when it really should be Oregon State. I'm hoping that's just a typo on the Webmaster's part. However, this fact makes me say we should be wary of considering the list definitive.

ChrTh said...

That's interesting: one of the coaches didn't submit a ballot! Where's the attached article?!?

ChrTh said...

Ok, SI.com has the list posted now as well, and they have Oregon State at 25. Also only 62 votes. So I think we take it as definitive and we need to wait for the Harris and Computer polls.

TF said...

Tressel asked to be abstained from voting and the poll allowed him to do so.

Joe (Dayton)

ChrTh said...

Tressel asked to be abstained from voting and the poll allowed him to do so.

Thanks. That's what I suspected.

See, I knew he was a smart coach.

TF said...

It would have been unfair to make him vote, he votes one way he's biased; votes another he is hurting is conference and people will be pissed.

Justin said...

Enjoy losing by 90.

ChrTh said...

Where are they going to post who everyone voted for? I'm really curious to see how Ron Zook voted.

JeterIs#1 said...

If I was Tressel I would have voted and left Michigan off. No way would I want to play them again. Only team with a shot of beating them I would say. At least he is stayin classy and not voting. Good man

TF said...

So let me get this straight.

Michigan can keep it close with Ball State and they're a clear cut #2, yet Florida can't keep it close with their biggest rival or in a game where the face of the program for 30+ years makes an emotional return?

Florida is a good team, I don't understand why people don't think they are. Remember Ohio State 2002? Miami was going to destroy them because OSU kept winning ugly...

Nothing is in stone yet anyway.

Justin said...

You've gotta be kiddng. Every good team that Florida beat outplayed them, but made horrible mistakes. Georgia. LSU. Auburn. Arkansas. Vanderbilt. South Carolina. If teams actually got up for Florida, and didn't make terrible mistakes, they go 6-6 and don't make a bowl.

Jeff said...

" There is a particularly compelling angle: Should "Michigan had their chance" be considered a legitimate argument for Florida? If you think Michigan is the unquestioned No. 2 team in the country, probably not. But they're not, and I think "had their chance" isn't nearly as illegitimate as some might be arguing. "

It's illegitimate because it shouldn't even enter the argument. If you think michigan is better than Flordia, Michigan should be #2 on your ballot.

The point of the polls is simply to rank the teams who you think is the best to the worst. The point of the BCS is to take the best two teams and place them against each other. The fact that those two teams played eachother before should have no bearing on the topic at all.

So, when I hear a GOOD argument as to why "they had their chance" I'll start to buy into it. So far I've only heard it from people that don't want michigan in the Title game and don't have any solid reasons as to why.

JeterIs#1 said...

Best breakdown/blog available for the BCS. Florida is going to get it with a computer tie.

http://www.aolsportsblog.com/

TF said...

Justin,

Teams don't just go 12-1 because they "got lucky" especially with the #1 schedule in the country.

We still beat 2 top 15 team by 13 and 10.

Justin said...

In the one you beat by 10, you do realize that was in part because of a last minute desperate interception and a stupid ass play caused two stupid ass plays by Arkansas on special teams cost them 21 points, right? Sure, a stupid ass play by Leak cost you guys 7, but still.....

Justin said...

Oh, and against LSU, 6 turnovers, only one of them arguably caused by good defense.

TF said...

Ok Justin, and the reason Michigan made it close was because of a late prevent Defense touchdown that came after a terrible Pass Interference call.

Yes, Leak's shovel pass was bad. But it was also an great play by the Dlineman. Regardless Florida went on a 21-7 run.

Steve said...

31-0? wow

ChrTh said...

Dan's an idiot:

In an interesting note, Jim Tressel asked to abstain, which I think is completely fraudulent. Don't accept the privilege of affecting the sport, week-in and week-out, then cop out in the one week when it matters most. I hope he's never allowed to participate in the coaches' poll again.

Right, because coaches should be forced to volunteer bulletin board material for the other team. I can understand someone speaking without thinking, but how does someone edit a blog post without thinking?

ChrTh said...

31-0? wow

Got 'em right where we want 'em.

TF said...

Justin did you even watch the LSU game? There was a fumbled snap, other than that Florida forced most of the turnovers.

Sorry, but our defense has been one of the top in the country this year.

Finally, we can get into this analyzing every game each team has played. Ball State was a few yards away from possibly sending your game into overtime...

Steve said...

This reminds me so much of the 2000 election. And once again Florida is prominently involved. Anyone know if Katherine Harris is a Harris poll voter?

ChrTh said...


This reminds me so much of the 2000 election. And once again Florida is prominently involved. Anyone know if Katherine Harris is a Harris poll voter?


Seems closer to 2004, I think Florida is going to have a clear victory in the BCS. And Ohio is prominently involved.

ChrTh said...

Florida has pulled ahead of Michigan in the ESPN poll, 51-49. Kentucky still represents the national average (I wasn't a believer before, but I am now).

Of course, these are all the bandwagon voters at this point.

sigszilla said...

Florida shouldn't get in based on one team on their schedule: Playing Western Freaking Carolina in November negates any 'inertia' issue you have with Michigan. I'd rather see the 'ines not play than watch the Gators beat the hell out of a glorified juco.

TF said...

Thanks to the addition of the 12th game we had to pick up a game that weekend. We contacted a multitude of schools and most denied us the opportunity. We had Army ready to sign, but ND offered more money, so we lost that game.

Rumor on our message boards has it that we're signing NC State to a deal to play next season.

You will never see a I-AA team playing against us in November again. Extenuating circumstances required it

ChrTh said...


Extenuating circumstances required it


Didn't UAB agree to play if UF played a home date with them next year? Why was that so tough to agree to?

Jeff said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Steve said...

chrth, since you didn't respond on the other thread I'm going to assume you didn't see it.
steve said...

Chrth,

Regarding Tressels' vote, voters can vote for a tie for 2nd if they so choose.If Tressel is smart this is what he'll do.

Regarding a Big 10 conference championship game, they need to have 12 teams first. Assuming Notre Dame joins, really the only logical choice, and wanting to keep rivalries intact, they definitely would split it east-west.

Penn St. Ohio St. Michigan Michigan St. Notre Dame and Purdue in the East. This would leave an Ohio St.-Wisconsin championship game this year. I know the East seems incredibly hard split that way but it's the way that makes sense.

TF said...

The same reason Ohio State isn't going to play games at Bowling Green or Central Michigan.

Ohio State has D-IAA teams scheduled for the next 2 seasons.

Florida has 1 in 2008, but we also have Hawaii, Miami, and FSU signed out of conference.

Jeff said...

" Ok Justin, and the reason Michigan made it close was because of a late prevent Defense touchdown that came after a terrible Pass Interference call. "

Do you like making things up? The last touchdown was not on a prevent defense. I'm sure you like saying that because it aids in your argument, but OSU was NOT playing a prevent defense on that possesion.

Unless you think man with saftey help is now Prevent defense.

Also, how was that a terrible PI call again? You do realize that face guarding IS PI right? The amazing thing about that play... Manningham got behind their defense, henne just underthrew it.

Also, that ball state game... it was senior's night. When ball state made their two big plays to make the game close, it was vs senior's that don't normally play. But hey, that doesn't help in your argument either.

It can go either way, and as I said in last nights topic if Flordia goes, I won't have any issues with the choice because I can see the argument for them.

If Michigan goes, all I'm going to hear is crying from flordia fans because "they had their chance"

SouthHavenSal said...

To paraphrase the immortal words of Hollywood from Top Gun...

Jim Tressel, you pu$$y!!!!

Jeff said...

" We(Flordia) still beat 2 top 15 team by 13 and 10. "

And michigan beat two top 10 teams by 25 and 14... sure you want to go there?

TF said...

If Michigan goes, all I'm going to hear is crying from flordia fans because "they had their chance"

It was a soft defense on that play, and the PI was not THAT obvious of a call, even the announcers were perplexed.

I think most Florida fans are saying this.

Florida: 9-1 against bowl eligible teams
Michigan: 6-1 against Bowl eligible teams

Florida: 3-1 against top 25 teams
Michigan: 2-1 against top 25 teams

Florida: Won Conference Championship
Michigan: Finished 2nd

The "they've had their shot" is in there, but it is far from our only argument.

TF said...

Jeff, I wasn't bringing that up to compare to Michigan's wins, I was bringing it up to the person who said Florida didn't beat anyone handedly. Those obviously show we did.

ChrTh said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ChrTh said...

@steve: I'm trying to remember what my Big 10+2 division breakdown was a couple years ago.

I think I had two; one for adding Notre Dame, and one for adding Pitt:
OSU - UM(I) - MSU - PoSU - UW - UM(N)
ND - I(N)U - UI - NW - PU - I(A)U
or
OSU - UM(I) - MSU - I(A)U - UW - UM(N)
PoSU - Pitt - I(N)U - UI - NW - PU

So it would've been either OSU-PoSU or OSU-ND in the big 10 championship.

Jeff said...

" It was a soft defense on that play, and the PI was not THAT obvious of a call, even the announcers were perplexed. "

On which play? The touchdown or the PI call? Either way you are wrong... go watch the tape.

Also, I honestly don't care if the announcers were confused by the call or not, if you face guard it is PI. The Corner face guarded, PI was called. Very simple.

"Florida: 9-1 against bowl eligible teams
Michigan: 6-1 against Bowl eligible teams

Florida: 3-1 against top 25 teams
Michigan: 2-1 against top 25 teams


Those are indeed the arguments that I can fully not bitch if Flordia does go to the Championship game. They won games.

The argument to that is simply HOW they won the games. Some people look at that (Computers and some Pollsters) some people don't like at that. A Flordia fan will obviously say "Hey, it's winning that matters" while a Michigan fan will say "Sqweaking out wins is does not make you better than us"

"Florida: Won Conference Championship
Michigan: Finished 2nd "


I think that is BS argument too. So because the two best teams come from the same conference they can't play eachother?

"The "they've had their shot" is in there, but it is far from our only argument. "

Oddly enough it is the one I hear the must of, and is the biggest BS argument of it all.

Geoff-Detroit said...

This system is so ridiculous. The goal is to put the best two teams in the title game I thought? But now everyone is willing to vote Florida #2 just so their can't be a rematch. Amazing.

Ah well, it will be fun to watch Florida lose by 3 touchdowns.

ChrTh said...

Ohio State has D-IAA teams scheduled for the next 2 seasons.


It's Jim Tressel's former team! I'm sure he's trying to do them a monetary favor!

While I concede tOSU always* plays the in-state school(s) in Columbus, one of the main reasons is because of stadium seating.

*In 2009, the Buckeyes are playing Toledo in CLEVELAND, not Columbus. How many top tier schools do that?

ChrTh said...

AND the Buckeyes have scheduled a home-and-home with Army in 2009-10. See, they do things the proper way.

ChrTh said...

btw, the score is now 31-10.

Right where we want 'em

Steve said...

chrth,

I don't understand your logic of putting Wisconsin and Minnesota with the other 4 eastern teams. To me putting Purdue and Notre Dame or Purdue and Pittsburgh with them makes more sense. You're breaking up a natural Wisconsin-Iowa rivalry. Also Notre Dame has natural rivalries with Michigan, Michigan St., Purdue, and Penn St. If oyu were going to get Notre Dame to join I am sure those rivalries would be a major selling point. Making them play the likes of IU, Illinois, Northwestern, and Iowa every year doesn't hold much appeal.

TF said...

and Florida has home and homes with NC State, Miami, a game against USF, and Florida State every season through 2010. We're not copping out on scheduling.

Ma4tt (the 4 is silent) said...

I cannot believe that there are still people who think the best college football team could beat the worst NFL team. It blows my MIND that people can be that naive.

Steve said...

Thinking a college team could even hang with an NFL team is like thinking a team from 25 years ago could hang with a team today. There is no way it would happen.

3 reasons why a college team can't hang:

1 There are over 3 times as many college teams so you have major talent dilution. Same reason a high school team would be at a major disadvantage to a college team.

2 The players are older and have practiced longer and consequently better in the pros than they were in college. You reach your football peak in the late 20s not at 20.

3 College teams can only choose from players with a 4 year age spread whereas NFL teams have realistically about a 12 year age spread. That's another 3 times as many players to choose your roster from.

Take your pick of the worst team in the NFL: Arizona, Detroit, Tampa Bay, Oakland, it doesnt matter. If they played Ohio St. they would wax the floor with them at least 42-14.

ChrTh said...

@tf: I'm not talking about matchups versus legit teams. I didn't mentiom OSU just finishing up a home and home with Texas, or their upcoming ones against Miami and USC because I thought we were talking about the matchups with the cake teams.

What it boils down to is, if you're only argument against scheduling a home-and-home with UAB is "none of the other top schools do it", then you have no argument because that's a lame cop-out.

Ma4tt (the 4 is silent) said...

Dan! Start up an NFL thread. So many things to talk about... argh....

Mike said...

I think we can all agree that no matter who plays in the national title game, no one will be satisfied because we had three teams that the national consensous is they all deserve a shot, and a 4th team that went unbeated and gets laughed at.

ChrTh said...

I think we can all agree that no matter who plays in the national title game, no one will be satisfied because we had three teams that the national consensous is they all deserve a shot, and a 4th team that went unbeated and gets laughed at.


If Boise State beats Oklahoma, and OSU loses, I say Boise State should get the AP National Championship.

Seeing as there is no chance in hell Boise State beats Oklahoma, however ...

Ma4tt (the 4 is silent) said...

I'll take Boise State over Oklahoma.

Anonymous said...

Indications are that Florida will make the champ. game.

Obviously, Florida-backers will be redeemed if Florida wins against OSU. But, in the likely event that they lose, I ask:
How many points can they lose by that you can argue they belonged there?

*they belonged there==they were the #2 team in the country

I say THREE. Neutral zone, where you can't argue either way ends at 7, and any bigger defeat than that, and "They were who we thought they were!"

Horatio said...

In Louisiana Sports News Today:

Reggie Bush atones for his alma mater's failure to seek victory and bring LSU to Rose Bowl.

"I was informed last night that because of USC's defeat, I was never going to see California again. I hope this makes them change their minds," said Bush.

Hisjazziness said...

Reggie w/ 4 TDs and 160 yards today.

I don't like to bash Shanoff like most others on here, but this deserves some kind of shot at Dan.

I'm just not smart enough to come up with one.

TF said...

LA Times is saying Florida to BCS Title game.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/college/football/la-sp-bcs4dec04,0,6645854.story?coll=la-home-headlines

marcomarco said...

Reggie Bush, 4td's. Eat it Shanny

Horatio said...

Jeff Fisher...

Wow, what a coach. Remember the Titans indeed, what ifthey started Young from in week 1????

They were gonna fire him???

Arizona, this is the kind of guy you need running your team, a winner who will take whoever and just get it done

Benny said...

LA Times says it's Florida playing Ohio State. It's according to a BCS source.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/college/football/la-sp-bcs4dec04,0,6645854.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Geoff-Detroit said...

Ah yeah, just more proof of a horribly flawed system. Michigan does absolutely nothing to hurt themselves in the rankings and drop behind USC first and then Florida. Sorry state of affairs. Should probably just return to the old system cause the BCS does not work.

Anonymous said...

Did anyone else see Jeff Fisher almost not go for the field goal?!?!?

Even thinking about taking the field goal unit off the field should be a fireable offense. Especially when you don't know if you'll ever have the ball again in this game. EspeciallyX2 when you know your QB is injured. EspeciallyX3 when the entire stadium knows you're wrong (booing) before you do.

Chris Kenning said...

Whatever happens, a ton of people will be unhappy - that's just the way the BCS rolls.

As for Tressel, I disagree that he's copping out by not voting. In this case (as opposed to his votes every other week) his vote is basically a vote for who he should play. It isn't comparable to other weeks when his opinion can't effect his potential opponent. Theoretically he faces an ethical dilema about voting for who he thinks is best (and perhaps limiting his chance of victory) vs who he think he can beat. That's a rough position to be in and I think he's right to opt out - he can only be hurt by voting and isn't the intent of the coaches poll.

Anonymous said...

Plus-one would match OSU-Florida against the best remaining team this year--Michigan, LSU or USC, based on their bowl game. BCS would actually be free of controversy if they instituted that. My money's on it happening by next year.

Biff said...

@eric

Ummmm, what about Boise State?

sigszilla said...

Did anyone else see Jeff Fisher almost not go for the field goal?!?!?


He just did that to get Dungy to call his last time out so they couldn't use it if his kicker missed. Even if Dungy didn't take his TO, Fisher would have. No way you don't take a shot at the FG with the chance to beat Indy, and with the wind at his back.

Troy (Gainesville, FL) said...

Michigan does absolutely nothing to hurt themselves in the rankings and drop behind USC first and then Florida.

Ack, what a horrible argument! We're to judge 100% of Michigan's season against the first 85% of Florida's season and then stick to that judgment once Florida finishes up the remaining 15%? Really? Rethink that one.

Geoff-Detroit said...

I don't really need to rethink the statement. Michigan finished their season a couple of weeks ago and were ranked #2. Since then Florida hasn't done anything impressive enough to justify vaulting over them and USC hadn't at the time either. But now because Florida plays last they are rewarded with a higher ranking. Makes no sense.

Ma4tt (the 4 is silent) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Ma4tt (the 4 is silent) said...

Less than an hour until the BCS show comes on. I'm for Michigan getting the #2 spot, and I have no real interest in either team (UF or UM) because I'm a VT Hokie. No SEC affiliation, no Big Ten affiliation, no feelings about either team either way.

Any other 100% impartial people out there? What do you think will happen, or SHOULD happen?

ChrTh said...


I don't really need to rethink the statement. Michigan finished their season a couple of weeks ago and were ranked #2. Since then Florida hasn't done anything impressive enough to justify vaulting over them and USC hadn't at the time either. But now because Florida plays last they are rewarded with a higher ranking. Makes no sense.


Of course it makes sense. USC and Florida each have beaten a top team since Michigan last played. Michigan isn't getting dropped, USC and Florida are getting rewarded.

It also doesn't help Michigan that USC beat Notre Dame; even if the human polls didn't penalize Michigan for that, the computers definitely would.

Chris Kenning said...

I think I'm pretty impartial - I went to college in Canada and don't have any active interest in any major college team. I just like good games.

That said, I think Michigan is the 2nd best team in the country, but I think Florida gets (and should get) their shot at Ohio State.

ChrTh said...

Ok, ten minutes to go.

The following seems to be the consensus (Automatic in Bold):

Sugar: LSU vs Notre Dame
Orange: Wake Forest vs Louisville
Rose: USC vs Michigan
Fiesta: Oklahoma vs Boise State
Championship: Ohio State vs Florida

Any chance that it won't fall this way (outside of Michigan grabbing the rematch)?

Troy (Gainesville, FL) said...

Lou Holtz hit the nail on the head a few minutes ago. The reason why Florida made the jump in the AP Coaches Polls is probably that the voters in those polls have spent the several weeks with the attitude, "I guess I have to keep Florida #4-ish for now... but there's no way they win out so I don't have to take them seriously for #2." And now that we managed to do it, they have to reconsider from teh point of view of "Oh, ok, I guess they accomplished quite a bit."

Biff said...

OK... I'm a BYU fan. As a result, I am a Utah hater. As a result, I don't think too highly of Urban Meyer. That's my preface...

OK, the night of the BYU/Utah game I went to a party at an acquaintance's house, who is a big Utah fan and has a lot of connections with the Ewtes. Apparently, he still has connections that talk to Urban on a regular basis. We started talking about Urban Meyer and he asked, "Do you know what Meyer has spent most of his time doing in the off-season?"

Most of us guessed recruiting. He said, "No, not really. He has his assistants work on that, and he'll chip in where needed." According to him, Meyer has spent A LOT of time getting to know every pollster. He knows EVERY pollster across the nation by name and face and knows their spouse's name, kids' names, etc. He goes out of his way to reach out to them in the off season and to get to know them on a personal basis.

Based on the early rumblings, this sure looks to have paid off.

ChrTh said...

No surprises yet:
Orange: Wake Forest vs Louisville
Fiesta: Oklahoma vs Boise State

Going waaaaay too slow. But we should know after the next bowl how the rest is going to fill out.

ChrTh said...

Wow, or they could skip Rose and Sugar and go straight to the National Championship game. Guess they knew that the other bowls would show who would go anyway, might as well announce it first.

Ma4tt (the 4 is silent) said...

I am so pissed off. The BCS was put into place in order to match the #1 and #2 teams against each other. Clearly, some unwritten rules came into play.

Playoff! Playoff! Playoff!

OSU is going to destroy Florida.

Kurt said...

BOOOOOOO

Ma4tt (the 4 is silent) said...

Amazing that OSU and FLA have never played each other.

Benvious said...

Sad - punishing Michigan for losing to the unquestioned #1 on the road

Biff said...

Go Tressel... Pushing the 16-team playoff!!! Wow.

Chris Kenning said...

I'm betting that Fox was required to announce the National Championship Game before 8:15 when the NFL Sunday Night game kicked off. Just a thought...

Ma4tt (the 4 is silent) said...

Wow, computers were tied at .940 - so the humans are the pussies.

Biff said...

Never mind. I totally misunderstood Tressell. Noisy kids.

ChrTh said...


I'm betting that Fox was required to announce the National Championship Game before 8:15 when the NFL Sunday Night game kicked off. Just a thought...


I think it was because showing either the Sugar (showing LSU versus Notre Dame) or Rose (showing USC versus Michigan) would've allowed ESPN to start discussing the National Championship since it would be known at that point.

Greg said...

LSU vs. ND in the Sugar Bowl.

LSU is going to win by 3 TD's.

Ma4tt (the 4 is silent) said...

The stated purpose of the BCS is to put the two BEST TEAMS into the title game. The voters clearly don't understand this. This is just as good as UM getting into the title game, beating OSU, and having a split poll.

The BCS is Bull (insert C word here) Shit.

PLAYOFF!

Brian - Beacon, NY said...

So what exactly did Notre Dame do to deserve a BCS bowl? They only played 2 good teams on their schedule, and both of them squashed Notre Dame. Playing 10 cupcakes and winning them(a lot of them barely) constitutes a BCS berth? Pathetic

ChrTh said...

Here are my predictions for the BCS bowls (plus the also-ran bowl).

Actually Believe:
OSU 31, UF 10
LSU 37, ND 17
UM 27, USC 21
Louisville 30, WFU 17
Oklahoma 21, Boise State 9
Wisconsin 14, Arkansas 10

Want to happen:
OSU 47, UF 21
LSU 84, ND 0
UM 3, USC 2
WFU 14, Louisville 10
Boise State 30, Oklahoma 20
Wisconsin 14, Arkansas 10

ChrTh said...


So what exactly did Notre Dame do to deserve a BCS bowl?


Didn't you hear? They're coached by a genius whose signature game is a loss.

It's quite possible I'll be hoping for LSU to drop 100 on ND by the time January rolls around.

Biff said...

@Brian

The BC$ is all about the $$$$$$$. Notre Dame brings in the $$$$$$$.
The purpose of the BC$ is not about finding the #1 team. That can't be more obvious now.

They've even got Boise State happy that they're getting a sniff at the $$$$ and not the championship. Crazy stuff.

Anonymous said...

Did you hear the fear in Meyer's voice? I think that he just realized that he has to lose by less than three points.

Anonymous said...

ma4tt:

The unwritten rule is that no coach from another conference will vote two Big Ten teams into the National Championship game, if he has any control over it.

The system...works?

Brian - Beacon, NY said...

Oh okay! So yea, a genius coach who won some Super Bowl titles guarantees you a BCS bowl because you beat 10 cupcakes and got stomped by the only good teams on your schedule. Gotcha. Like you guys, I seriously hope LSU puts up 100 on them. Run up the fucking score PLEASE. Show no mercy. You're right, it is about money, not about finding the best team. These are the list of the great teams Notre Dame beat this year: Georgia Tech, Penn State, Michigan State, Stanford, UCLA(yeah they beat USC, that still doesn't make it any better), Navy, North Carolina, Air Force, Army. THAT SCHEDULE gave them a BCS berth. Why bother playing in a conference? Learn from Notre Dame! Be an independent, schedule a bunch of cupcakes, throw in 1 or 2 good teams, beat up the cupcakes and you get a BCS berth and millions for your school. What a joke

Biff said...

@Brian

The funniest part is that most other BC$ schools have to split their BC$ money with the other schools in their conference. Notre Ame gets to keep it ALL. Hilarious.

The rich get richer, and Boise State, the second undefeated team has crowds in their stadium CHEERING because they were allowed a scrap at the table. Hilarious.

Brian - Beacon, NY said...

Really? The schools have to split it with the other teams? Did not know that. Damn, this system BLOWS! I love the quote, "It only works when there are only 2 undefeated teams left." Well there are 2 undefeated teams left. And one of them isn't playing in the title game. Now granted they would more than likely be slaughtered by OSU, but still, who's to deny them the chance? I mean, was their schedule any less tough than Notre Ame's? They didn't play anyone ranked, and they beat everyone they played.

Anonymous said...

One point no one has made yet: Notre Dame would not even make a BCS game if they were in a conference because they'd have to be #1 or #2 in that conference to get in. So, not only do they make less money for being in a conference, they don't get that paycheck at all. Somebody has to put a gun to their head and FORCE them to join a conference.

Biff said...

So with the BCS ranking between Florida and Michigan only thousandths of point difference, would Tressel's non-vote have made a difference?

Biff said...

@Brian

The split is up to the conference. I know that when Utah got "the check" in 2004, they got to keep something like 2.X million. The rest was split up between the rest of the teams in the conference. Something close to a million each. I don't know what the other conferences do, but I imagine it is similar.

Brian - Beacon, NY said...

That's a great point Eric. They benefit so much by not being in a conference. I mean, why would anyone be in a conference when you can do what they do? They have their own TV contract, get BCS bowl by beating up on cupcakes, and all the coin goes to them. No benefits at all by being in a conference.

Benvious said...

@Biff

No. The computer polls were dead even, and the coaches poll had Florida by 26 points. Tressel could have had Michigan #1 and Florida unranked and it still wouldn't have mattered.

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